X-37B

[Nothalogh]

35 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

If Space Shuttle is any indication, launching classified payloads are OK, though. Shuttle had launched several.

The key word there is "launching" not hosting and managing them.

 

Though I believe back in the days before Challenger, the USAF had a plan to run their own STS missions with USAF crews.

[magnemoe]

13 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

I do get why people assume it is some kind of weapon testing. I mean, it is the US Air Force and paid for by military budget.

But the Air Force does a lot of basic research too. I have no reason to doubt the official explanation that they are conducting long-term space orbital endurance testing. My guess is: "materials that they might want to use on spy sats but want to make sure will hold up to long exposure to orbital conditions".

Yes, and ISS is not an good place to put something top secret, you have supply runs from multiple nations coming in, astronauts on spacewalk the canarm who can move around and has cameras. They even launch cubesats from it. 
Its something they need to bring back to study. This is always useful because you can check for damage 

Weapons is unlikely, US has an abm / asat missile they can launch from warships. 
Sensors or materials is far more likely. 
 

[wumpus]

14 hours ago, Nothalogh said:

Not only that, but NASA is not allowed, by its charter, to do classified stuff.

This was one of the reasons why Project Orion had to seek military funding, and thus prove military applicability.

So DARPA needs an orbital platform to do orbital DARPA things.

I'm curious what the specific case is now.  I know that after 9/11 access to Goddard Space Flight Center is pretty restricted and employees/contractors need some sort of security clearance (although possibly some type that allows non-US citizens: more about not shooting the place up than espionage).  There isn't a whole lot of difference between the access control of NASA Goddard and Naval Research Labs (at least from a visitor's standpoint).

I'm sure when the contracts are handed out, anything classified means the DoD gets to defend their turf.  But I suspect NASA is allowed to keep quiet about a bunch of stuff, just nothing at "secret" or above.

[razark]

37 minutes ago, wumpus said:

employees/contractors need some sort of security clearance

Everyone goes through a pretty standard background check (Look up the SF86).  There are people at NASA with security clearances for various reasons, but it's not that common.

 

42 minutes ago, wumpus said:

(although possibly some type that allows non-US citizens: more about not shooting the place up than espionage).

There are plenty of foreign nationals at NASA centers.  They do have different access from US citizens, and it is about espionage. (ITAR/EAR regulations come up quite often.  Any information not previously released is reviewed before it can leave the agency. (The systems used for that review are specifically "No Foreign Nationals" access.))  The difference between a space rocket and a missile is nothing more than where the guidance system tells it to go.

 

48 minutes ago, wumpus said:

just nothing at "secret" or above.

There is a stock of classified information coversheets available for use.  SF704 is "Secret".  Never seen SF703, "Top Secret", though.

[mikegarrison]

3 hours ago, razark said:

The difference between a space rocket and a missile is nothing more than where the guidance system tells it to go.

Well, and the payloads are usually a little different.

[razark]

11 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

Well, and the payloads are usually a little different.

Yeah, but that tends to be the simple part.  Anyone with the smarts to put together a rocket has the smarts to figure out a way to get a big boom when it lands.

[StrandedonEarth]

10 minutes ago, razark said:

Yeah, but that tends to be the simple part.  Anyone with the smarts to put together a rocket has the smarts to figure out a way to get a big boom when it lands.

Ah, but the trick is having it go boom when it lands/impacts, not 40 miles up. The V2 used a fairly low-yield warhead, because more powerful explosives would have been set off by the heat of re-entry

[mikegarrison]

I think the key to understanding the Air Force using the X-37B is that it comes back. They can test stuff in orbit and then bring that stuff back and actually look at it. Easy enough (if you are the US Air Force) to launch things into orbit, but generally you never get to inspect them up close ever again. With the X-37B, they can launch stuff to orbit, let it do its thing (or do nothing) for a couple years, then bring it back and inspect it to see what orbital conditions did to it.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, mikegarrison said:

I think the key to understanding the Air Force using the X-37B is that it comes back. They can test stuff in orbit and then bring that stuff back and actually look at it. Easy enough (if you are the US Air Force) to launch things into orbit, but generally you never get to inspect them up close ever again. With the X-37B, they can launch stuff to orbit, let it do its thing (or do nothing) for a couple years, then bring it back and inspect it to see what orbital conditions did to it.

This, and yes you can do this on ISS but that is pretty public, and before dragon 1 you had to return it on an Soyuz and trough Russia so not something you would do on something secret. 

[farmerben]

On 8/18/2019 at 1:29 PM, tater said:

I read that they use the EDL capability to adjust their orbit, as well. Ie: burn at apogee to lower perigee slightly into atmosphere, use aero forces to alter orbit, burn at new apogee to raise perigee.

 

Hang on a second.  This maneuver would always lower inclination to a slightly more equatorial orbit, it will not do the reverse.  And the vector component of inclination change is small compared to the total change in velocity.  So it is not the most fuel efficient way to lower inclination.  If we want to flyover every point on Earth, all we have to do is take a polar orbit and wait for the Earth to rotate underneath us. 

It also lowers apogee and period.  The maneuver can be the most fuel efficient way to do those things.  It's called aerobraking.  

Suppose we want to aim precisely so that perigee occurs over an exact latitude and longitude on Earth.  For certain reasonable parameters I can do this with a burn that changes the period by 20 seconds.  If we add constraints like, the angle of the sunlight/shadows, not starting in a low polar orbit, getting to the point in the shortest possible time... then it requires more dV.  So there is a weak case for this capability.  But it is a very weak case indeed compared to a spy satellite that omits all the massive parts necessary for aerobraking and landing.  

The x-37 is not a launch vehicle.  All those aerodynamic parts are valuable only for recovery.  

So the USAF has the capability to recover satellites which were not designed to be recovered by them.  

It doesn't seem like the US military to engage in piracy.  But hey, if you detect an unidentified object and blowing it up is not a good option, what are you going to do?

[mikegarrison]

New X-37B mission to be launched on May 16.

Who wants to guess how long it will be in space this time? By the pattern established so far, we might not see it back again until 2023.

[tater]

Not sure I realized this awesome critter had a thread...

Actually, it's already in my index thread.

Should have checked.

 

[Scotius]

New service module? Moar science!

Which probably will translate into longer stay in orbit.

2023? I wouldn't be surprised.

[kerbiloid]

Snax. They take more snax.

[Scotius]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Snax. They take more snax.

As a fodder for a mini-proto-Kraken hidden in a darkest nook of payload bay.

[kerbiloid]

1 minute ago, Scotius said:

As a fodder for a mini-proto-Kraken hidden in a darkest nook of payload bay.

They played KSP and realized that an astronaut can spend two years in the cargobay without life support if give him enough snacks.

That was the actual objective if the previous flight. Not materials, not nukes. A Kerbal. With snacks. Talking to the imaginary Kraken for two seasons years like in any modern sci-fi.

Now they plan to make let him spend there a whole duration of the Martian flight.
If he can, they send him to Duna Mars in the microspaceplane. It's possible, they did it in KSP.

[SOXBLOX]

And testing a beamed solar power experiment next launch! Very interesting. Perhaps it will let us keep electric UAV's aloft for longer? 

[tater]

52 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

And testing a beamed solar power experiment next launch! Very interesting. Perhaps it will let us keep electric UAV's aloft for longer? 

Seems unlikely for that application, but it's super useful, regardless. I doubt the power density for a terrestrial UAV is high enough (they'd be lucky to collect as much as solar panels, I think). I know the military has some interest in remote ground bases having power where solar is less effective due to weather.

It could have real utility for other spacecraft, however.

In the SpaceX thread I recently reposted a video about double sided solar panels than also have a phased array in them to beam power. They mentioned the military as a possible customer (since it's still expensive per kW).

Edited May 12, 2020 by tater

[SOXBLOX]

Here:     https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33339/x-37b-space-planes-microwave-power-beam-experiment-is-a-way-bigger-deal-than-it-seems

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

So, that's why they have delayed the launch due to the weather conditions...

They are afraid that there are clouds in orbit, and it's not enough solar light for experiments...

 

[mikegarrison]

This little tidbit showed up in Wikipedia:

Quote

The X-37B remains a Department of the Air Force asset; but, the newly-established U.S. Space Force is responsible for the launch, on-orbit operations, and landing.

 

[mikegarrison]

The X-37B has won the 2019 Collier Trophy. (Well, technically it is the "X37B team" that won the trophy.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collier_Trophy

Edited August 17, 2020 by mikegarrison

[tater]

Found this just now, pretty cool:

 

[mikegarrison]

The award ceremony for the Collier Trophy was this past Monday.

[Ziggy Kerman]

X-37B- The irl, "exposed materials to space and recorded the results"