Whatever Happened To Wingless Electromagnetic Air Vehicles?

[Spacescifi]

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/worlds-first-flying-saucer/

So people were working on this over a decade ago.

Nowadays no one hears of it.

Like the whole project died.

Why?

My theory: Even though they managed to fly small prototypes a few milimeters off the ground for two minutes, and the design is scalable, it never went further because it is too expensive and the only thing that might power it is a nuclear reactor. If not that... antimatter, which we don't have to any usable degree.

 

So what is the point of WEAV any way?

With sufficient power to operate them could they EVER compete with airplanes or even SSTO's (yes I know they would need a rocket engine for orbital insertion)?

Or is it just a very expensive way to do what a plane already does?

What is the benefit? Flying without using fuel?

Because I am not sure a greater payload than airplanes or even space rockets is possible.... since that will increase the piwer thermal load, which increases craft weight to deal with that.... unless we use air turbines to cool the craft... THAT'S IT!

I think....

What do you think?

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spacescifi

[sevenperforce]

Voltages required are far too enormous to be workable, and contrary to the inventor's claim it would not scale well at all due to the required energy density.

[mikegarrison]

I think you might want to learn more about TRL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level

[Bill Phil]

Just now, sevenperforce said:

Voltages required are far too enormous to be workable, and contrary to the inventor's claim it would not scale well at all due to the required energy density.

It “scales well” because it can be scaled up without too many changes to the flight dynamics. But to perform well it needs immense energy. 

[sevenperforce]

2 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

It “scales well” because it can be scaled up without too many changes to the flight dynamics. But to perform well it needs immense energy. 

That's kind of like saying that an English longbow would scale up well, so long as you had a giant to bend it.

[Bill Phil]

4 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

That's kind of like saying that an English longbow would scale up well, so long as you had a giant to bend it.

Yeah. But WEAVs main issue is energy sources - and there are some clever workarounds that could solve the problem. But those may have their own issues.

At least in this case the giants in question could theoretically exist in the future.

[Superfluous J]

If a car engine dies, it sits there.

If a hovering saucer's engine dies, it falls from the sky.

Q.E.D.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Superfluous J

[Bill Phil]

1 minute ago, Superfluous J said:

If a car engine dies, it sits there.

If a hovering saucer's engine dies, it falls from the sky.

Q.E.D.

Same case for planes and helicopters though. 

Of course planes can at least glide. Choppers might be able to try and glide with autorotation, or at least slow their fall.

[kerbiloid]

Because the tyres permanently contain the electromagnetic field (between the atoms) without rtecharging.
So, by using tyres you still electromagnetically levitate above the road without any powersource.

Plane traffic is much less than road traffic, so higher probabilty of crash is compensated by low absolute values.

[magnemoe]

5 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

Yeah. But WEAVs main issue is energy sources - and there are some clever workarounds that could solve the problem. But those may have their own issues.

At least in this case the giants in question could theoretically exist in the future.

And the most lightweight way to produce lots of energy is an gas turbine who is better used as an jet engine if you want lift or trust. 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

And the most lightweight way to produce lots of energy is an gas turbine who is better used as an jet engine if you want lift or trust. 

 

Interesting.

So what you are saying is that even for a scifi race that could create safely stored antimatter by the kilogram, WEAV's would still be expensive flying craft?

Airplanes, helicopters, and rockets powered by antimatter would still be cheaper.... although they would not have the same endurance in theory as a saucer. Unless they were fully electric, in which case they could probably outlast a WEAV for flight time.

Even though a WEAV does not need propellant, it DOES need mass to shed waste heat... which the air can provide...up to a point anyway.

There is a point where the mass will cancel that out though so they can only get so big.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Nuke]

were getting to where we can actually make power supplies for these things. though i dont think were quite up to twr of 1 just yet so no hovering. flight on the other hand is still possible (google mit ion plane). but were still talking extremely lightweight construction likely not suited for manned applications.

as far as power supplies go, mit's schematic took a high dc voltage of 160-225v which is then inverted, fed to an hv transformer, followed by a full wave six stage voltage multiplier. id love to see what this actually looks like but all i can find is a simple schematic, except for the transformer this is likely all solid state, and the transformer is going to be small, so we might be talking a few square inches of board space (possibly larger to prevent arcing between components). the only way i figured the battery pack would be small enough to fly is with flat cells, and i found some flat cells with a very small mah rating. i figure it would run < 1 minute on a charge and likely with zero battery safety circuitry. there is a long way to go. 

though there was this thing awhile back about using giant flying wing shaped airships with a 1km wing span using ion propulsion powered by thin film solar cells to get to orbit. it was insane but it would be something to see. 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Nuke

[KerikBalm]

Didn't they recently have a (winged) vehicle propelled through the air by some electromagnetic system like this?

They also have electric propulsion on boats... but its not practical nor efficient, its a novelty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

[kerbiloid]

By the end of the global quarantine humans will get used to sit at home and skype each other, the cars won't be needed anymore, so maglev trains will be the only viable magnetic flying vessels, and this will simplify the problem drastically.

[Nuke]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:25 AM, KerikBalm said:

Didn't they recently have a (winged) vehicle propelled through the air by some electromagnetic system like this?

yes

https://electricaircraft.mit.edu/mit-engineers-fly-first-ever-plane-with-no-moving-parts/

this was the thing i was talking about in my previous post. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Nuke

[munlander1]

Some people can't properly control cars in two dimensions. Three is a bad idea

[Casey James]

It's been done. They have them. They figured out the power problem. As it turned out, the power need wasn't the issue. They found a simple fix in the engine and just needed regular everyday batteries for the electrical operation. But, it's ionized compressed air, and magnets, that creates the lift and thrust needed for propulsion. The part they did have trouble with however, was the exhaust, or leave, for the amount of heat it generates without damaging the vehicle or cooking it's occupants. But, they figured that out too.

They have these systems built into new VTOLs, and as of now, they're publicly available for order, and people (in the US, as places like UAE already have them) will start receiving them in July of this year. We're going to see a few crazy new technologies and vehicles this summer, and by the following summer (2025), these personal VTOL WAEVs will be all over the place.

"Where we're going Marty...We don't need roads."

 

[mikegarrison]

On 2/23/2024 at 10:32 PM, Casey James said:

We're going to see a few crazy new technologies and vehicles this summer, and by the following summer (2025), these personal VTOL WAEVs will be all over the place.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[DDE]

1 hour ago, mikegarrison said:

Pics or it didn't happen.

These days? It's r/CombatFootage post or it didn't happen / too expensive to happen beyond a novelty.

On 2/24/2024 at 9:32 AM, Casey James said:

"Where we're going Marty...We don't need roads."

It's hoverboard hype time! Can't have a failing start-up without selling a hoverboard!

[KSK]

Magnets huh? Well they’re close enough to magic that I’m convinced.

Shows what the last guy knew though. He swore that his air car ran on pure water and got 150 miles to the gallon.

[darthgently]

Free Lunch™ will always attract some bottom feeding minor and desperate venture capitalists.  Let me know when SpaceX or Blue Origin move to purchase this venture or NASA sends them ¼ of their budget.  Then I'll reconsider

On 2/24/2024 at 1:32 AM, Casey James said:

But, it's ionized compressed air, and magnets, that creates the lift and thrust needed for propulsion

Something tells me it is the compressed air doing the heavy lifting here if any lifting is happening at all and the energy to compress that air is handwaved away at the investment opportunity events

[Nuke]

On 2/25/2024 at 9:29 AM, mikegarrison said:

Pics or it didn't happen.

type "vtol aircraft" into youtube.

[Superfluous J]

10 minutes ago, Nuke said:

type "vtol aircraft" into youtube.

You may need to add "magic" or "imaginary" to find anything other than... you know... actual VTOL aircraft that exist in reality.

[Nuke]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

You may need to add "magic" or "imaginary" to find anything other than... you know... actual VTOL aircraft that exist in reality.

there are lots which i would call "toys", what amounts to single seat manned drones with no practical use beyond cruising around for a few minutes. probably classified as small sport craft by the faa. and many concepts some of which are show to be flying. but a test article is far from a large production run. i think what is really needed is a compact apu that can power the electric motors you would normally use in a large drone. helicopters can operate on as little as 100 horsepower or about 75kw. batteries really dont have the density right now for anything other than light sport aircraft. but a lightweight generator that fits the bill is far from an unsolvable problem and would give you a useful range. i guess everyone wants to build the air frame first and worry about a practical powerplant later.

Edited February 28 by Nuke