if Babylon 5 Did Not Pull Any Punches With Character Deaths

[Spacescifi]

 

Bablyon 5 is notable for being more of a story than Star Trek ever was.

For those of you that have seen it perhaps you can answer this scenario:

You are called upon to make modern remake of Babylon 5 with some DEFINITE changes to the overal plot.

Any other changes are up to you, but the ones that are required are these:

 

1. John Sheridan simply dies permanently, no Kosh help here. Instead of jumping he just kisses his 'wife' goodbye as the nuke ship hits.

 

No one takes Deleen's place at the starfire wheel. She is burned to ash. Yet Minibar is effected deeply by her sacrifice. Especially Neroon.

3. Ivanova dies after the battle. No help from Marcus.

 

Garibaldi is still messed up by Bester, but without Sheridan to betray since he is dead and a rampaging Pres Clark, how does what's left of Babylon's Command crew continue?

Who takes command? Franklin? The Security chief?

LOL Lyta? Not command but she is a powerful telepath. Garibaldi is compromised so he is out, Ivanova is dead. But maybe Deleen, since she at least survives Sheridan's death for a while?

 

This gonna be tough... but it will be interesting to see how they still pull through.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

Deleen → Delenn

Yes, her.
 

Spoiler

LOST was the sequel.

 

[FleshJeb]

I'm forgetting a lot of the plot, even though I've watched every episode at least 3 times.

I think the Alien Council (is that the right name?) votes to maintain the independence of Bab 5. The station probably ends up under Minbari/mixed command. A lot of the same people would still be working there, just with different uniforms. I think the politics get slower and involve more compromise. I suppose having Neroon in command of the station is a bit of a demotion for him, so that wouldn't quite logically work. It would still be an interesting character study. I don't think he'd be a diplomatically cunning as Sheridan, but ultimately I think he'd make it work. I think Minbar probably becomes the superpower, rather than one among equals.

In this scenario, G'Kar and Londo become more influential. I think the shared grief of losing so many people that they love and respect encourages them to work together more. They'd be the only "elder statesmen" left, and cooperation would serve the best interests of their people. After Sheridan dies, I think Delenn would scheme very hard to make this happen. She's very aware of the power of narrative, and is a masterful political manipulator. G'Kar and Londo together would have enormous political capital and serve as an example to others. IIRC that sort of happens anyway, but  in this case it happens earlier, and is less precarious. Or perhaps Londo goes fully mad and sabotages everything.

The Rangers are still legitimate and effective as a peacekeeping force. They still gather up the Ancients and tell the Shadows and the Vorlons to GTFO. They still end up in the peacekeeper role under the same conditions. It might be a harder, longer sell, but ultimately, it's a really good move.

Marcus becomes a very well-respected and effective senior commander in the Rangers. Ultimately he still dies saving lives.

Earth dies in the attack that Sheridan prevented. The remainder of humanity are refugees, and Mars becomes the new center of Sol-system power. I think humanity is out of the game for quite some time.

G'Kar inherits Garibaldi's Daffy Duck poster.

(Ignore me, no one listens to Zathras.)

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, FleshJeb said:

I'm forgetting a lot of the plot, even though I've watched every episode at least 3 times.

I think the Alien Council (is that the right name?) votes to maintain the independence of Bab 5. The station probably ends up under Minbari/mixed command. A lot of the same people would still be working there, just with different uniforms. I think the politics get slower and involve more compromise. I suppose having Neroon in command of the station is a bit of a demotion for him, so that wouldn't quite logically work. It would still be an interesting character study. I don't think he'd be a diplomatically cunning as Sheridan, but ultimately I think he'd make it work. I think Minbar probably becomes the superpower, rather than one among equals.

In this scenario, G'Kar and Londo become more influential. I think the shared grief of losing so many people that they love and respect encourages them to work together more. They'd be the only "elder statesmen" left, and cooperation would serve the best interests of their people. After Sheridan dies, I think Delenn would scheme very hard to make this happen. She's very aware of the power of narrative, and is a masterful political manipulator. G'Kar and Londo together would have enormous political capital and serve as an example to others. IIRC that sort of happens anyway, but  in this case it happens earlier, and is less precarious. Or perhaps Londo goes fully mad and sabotages everything.

The Rangers are still legitimate and effective as a peacekeeping force. They still gather up the Ancients and tell the Shadows and the Vorlons to GTFO. They still end up in the peacekeeper role under the same conditions. It might be a harder, longer sell, but ultimately, it's a really good move.

Marcus becomes a very well-respected and effective senior commander in the Rangers. Ultimately he still dies saving lives.

Earth dies in the attack that Sheridan prevented. The remainder of humanity are refugees, and Mars becomes the new center of Sol-system power. I think humanity is out of the game for quite some time.

G'Kar inherits Garibaldi's Daffy Duck poster.

(Ignore me, no one listens to Zathras.)

 

Wow.

Cool story... I'm serious and sincere by the way.

What happens to Garibaldi?

How does Sheridan make THAT big a difference? I mean I can easily see G'kar leading the fleet against Earth during the Endgame episode and being competent enough to realize what Clark is trying to do (epic scorched earth).

But yes, if that weapons array takes out the entire western seaboard as claimed... yea, humanity will be decimated.

 

EDIT: Ooops... I see now. Sheridan is a good diplomat. Ivanova is poor at it. Deleen is great schemer, and so-so diplomat.

With all of them dead diplomacy will go out the window, as we both know Londo and G'kar are both better at scheming than actual diplomacy.

So Earth will be less willing to forgive B5 after the war, and B5 and the league of nonaligned worlds will stand alone.

What happens to Franklin?

Like Garabaldi he has issues... that he manages to work through... but this time Sheridan won't be around. And Deleen is more a comforter to him than someone who would tell him off (like Garibaldi).

They would make an odd couple... but with Sheridan gone?

Franklin and Deleen a couple?!

Never saw that coming!

Plausible though... simply because Deleen is the comforting type and Franklin both needs it but can and has comforted Deleen before.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Spacescifi

[SOXBLOX]

Which ST are we talking about here? 'Cause if it's TOS or STD  (dumb acronym for a dumb show), then I agree. But if it's DS9, then they are equal. Obviously, since they're the same story.

[Spacescifi]

3 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

Which ST are we talking about here? 'Cause if it's TOS or STD  (dumb acronym for a dumb show), then I agree. But if it's DS9, then they are equal. Obviously, since they're the same story.

 

Not quite. B5's entire story was set in motion more or less before it went to screen.

Ds9 took the Dominion War to actually get linear storytelling.

Prior to that it was far more episodic.

Babylon 5 always had a main plot at work (vorlons/shado conflict), until the 5th season when they ran out story (it was supposed to end in season 4).

[FleshJeb]

@Spacescifi I forget how to multiquote:

Quote

What happens to Garibaldi?

I couldn't remember the timeline and who rescues him from Psi Corps. Was it Lise or Sheridan? I just assumed he was out of the picture and unrecoverable. Best case is that he settles down with Lise.

Quote

How does Sheridan make THAT big a difference? I mean I can easily see G'kar leading the fleet against Earth during the Endgame episode and being competent enough to realize what Clark is trying to do (epic scorched earth).

Sheridan is a very convenient "Mary Sue", which is why killing him off is a really interesting idea. Do The Avengers gel so well without Captain America? If you were to cast Cap in the 80s, you'd pick Bruce Boxleitner. He's a good diplomat partially because he's such a trustworthy boy scout.

The whole reason Sheridan could save Earth is that he brought two or three other EarthForce ships and captains with him. That convinced most of the rest of EarthForce to turn against Clarke and stop the missiles instead of getting delayed by a battle. G'Kar just doesn't have the same influence and connections. Also, he's much more of a philosopher than a military commander. I think in his old age he becomes a revered figure, second only to G'Quan.

Quote

So Earth will be less willing to forgive B5 after the war, and B5 and the league of nonaligned worlds will stand alone.

Yep. Even if Earth survived, they'd give into xenophobia and isolationism without a former EarthForce captain as the first President of the League.  In B5, Earth is a bit of a stand-in for the U.S....aaaand I'll let you draw your own parallels.

Quote

What happens to Franklin?

It's hard to say--I think he was the weakest actor of the main cast, so I think that really limited what could be written for him in the large story arc. I think he just continues being a damn good doctor who continues to treat all species with maximum care, compassion, and skill. That's a hell of a contribution to peace all on it's own.

Franklin and Delenn don't work as a couple, but I think they make excellent friends without having the writers force an awkward romance. My biggest argument against it is that Franklin is WAY into bad girls. Because of his father, he's still a damaged little boy with something to prove. That makes him really obsessively good at his job, but he's got a long way to go. Delenn is a strong, independent, adult woman who wouldn't be attracted to that. I think there's a lot of opportunity for Stephen to experience more growth, but that's a side plot and doesn't fit into the timeline of the story.

Lennier is an interesting case. They had that whole story arc where he admits his love for Delenn betrays some people and runs off into the wilderness. I know that really ticked off the actor because he thought it was deeply out of character. I also don't think Lennier and Delenn work as a couple for many of the same reasons as Franklin. I do think he becomes an envoy between the Rangers and the Minbari government, without actually becoming either a Ranger or a politician. His ability to enable and support them would be invaluable. He doesn't have the flexibility and the subtlety to make it in politics, or onto the Grey Council. He probably settles down with a nice Minbari gal that's a good fit for him, settles down and has some kids that he adores.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, FleshJeb said:

@Spacescifi I forget how to multiquote:

I couldn't remember the timeline and who rescues him from Psi Corps. Was it Lise or Sheridan? I just assumed he was out of the picture and unrecoverable. Best case is that he settles down with Lise.

Sheridan is a very convenient "Mary Sue", which is why killing him off is a really interesting idea. Do The Avengers gel so well without Captain America? If you were to cast Cap in the 80s, you'd pick Bruce Boxleitner. He's a good diplomat partially because he's such a trustworthy boy scout.

The whole reason Sheridan could save Earth is that he brought two or three other EarthForce ships and captains with him. That convinced most of the rest of EarthForce to turn against Clarke and stop the missiles instead of getting delayed by a battle. G'Kar just doesn't have the same influence and connections. Also, he's much more of a philosopher than a military commander. I think in his old age he becomes a revered figure, second only to G'Quan.

Yep. Even if Earth survived, they'd give into xenophobia and isolationism without a former EarthForce captain as the first President of the League.  In B5, Earth is a bit of a stand-in for the U.S....aaaand I'll let you draw your own parallels.

It's hard to say--I think he was the weakest actor of the main cast, so I think that really limited what could be written for him in the large story arc. I think he just continues being a damn good doctor who continues to treat all species with maximum care, compassion, and skill. That's a hell of a contribution to peace all on it's own.

Franklin and Delenn don't work as a couple, but I think they make excellent friends without having the writers force an awkward romance. My biggest argument against it is that Franklin is WAY into bad girls. Because of his father, he's still a damaged little boy with something to prove. That makes him really obsessively good at his job, but he's got a long way to go. Delenn is a strong, independent, adult woman who wouldn't be attracted to that. I think there's a lot of opportunity for Stephen to experience more growth, but that's a side plot and doesn't fit into the timeline of the story.

Lennier is an interesting case. They had that whole story arc where he admits his love for Delenn betrays some people and runs off into the wilderness. I know that really ticked off the actor because he thought it was deeply out of character. I also don't think Lennier and Delenn work as a couple for many of the same reasons as Franklin. I do think he becomes an envoy between the Rangers and the Minbari government, without actually becoming either a Ranger or a politician. His ability to enable and support them would be invaluable. He doesn't have the flexibility and the subtlety to make it in politics, or onto the Grey Council. He probably settles down with a nice Minbari gal that's a good fit for him, settles down and has some kids that he adores.

 

Well... Garibaldi only came out of being controlled once Bester released his mind block... after he betrayed Sheridan. Without Sheridan to betray, I suppose he just exposes the kill all telepaths plot, and returns to B5. Neroon... I don't know how he will handle Garibaldi's alcoholism, but he won't think highly of him for it.

Sheridan nearly blew up on him, only Deleen stopped him.

I actually loved Franklin, since he was a very realistic character that I could relate to (daddy issues don't get me started).

He was like Bashir from DS9, only with more flaws.

I mean he really hit rock bottom on his walkabout. A former officer acting and looking like a homeless guy on the station.

Quite the character turn and I enjoyed his character arc.

So I guess Deleen does not end up with anyone?

For what it's worth, there are plenty of Minbari gals who would love Lennier.

He is like a model for what any decent Minbari should be.

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

Delenn, Lennier.

[Nuke]

On 6/25/2020 at 5:24 PM, Spacescifi said:

 

Not quite. B5's entire story was set in motion more or less before it went to screen.

Ds9 took the Dominion War to actually get linear storytelling.

Prior to that it was far more episodic.

Babylon 5 always had a main plot at work (vorlons/shado conflict), until the 5th season when they ran out story (it was supposed to end in season 4).

idk about that, the dominion was mentioned in season 2. granted season 1 and 2 were a lot of recycled unused tng scripts, especially the one off episodes. but in retrospect ds9 had one of the better first seasons of any trek (not including tos). and babylon 5 was awesome for 4 seasons, i try to forget the 5th and some of the movies and the spinoff that didn't go anywhere (i did like the captain's character though). 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Nuke

[hendrack]

That B5 episode with the Inquisitor is kinda relevant here. You can argue that either the individual protagonists are not relevant to the overall story (another one would take their place), or, the events set in motion by the Vorlons are so carefully planned that this outcome had to pass, no matter what, that they were indeed had a destiny. Allthough I think it is a mix of both points, the Vorlons did surely not see them being kicked out of the galaxy, but on the other hand the B4 time travel stuff surely had a ring of destiny to it.

Then there is plot armor.

Edited July 11, 2020 by hendrack

[Nuke]

2 hours ago, hendrack said:

That B5 episode with the Inquisitor is kinda relevant here. You can argue that either the individual protagonists are not relevant to the overall story (another one would take their place), or, the events set in motion by the Vorlons are so carefully planned that this outcome had to pass, no matter what, that they were indeed had a destiny. Allthough I think it is a mix of both points, the Vorlons did surely not see them being kicked out of the galaxy, but on the other hand the B4 time travel stuff surely had a ring of destiny to it.

Then there is plot armor.

the vorlons were known for doing all kinds of manipulations to almost every race in b5. genetic manipulation, social manipulation, religious engineering, etc, for millennia. they are why most races have telepaths for example, and i wouldn't doubt they are responsible for sweedish meatballs as well (which is why i call them vorlon meatballs). you saw some religious engineering when kosh got into g'kar's head and by the end of the series he has reached messiah status, even going as far as making themselves look like deities to everyone except londo.

im curious if the vorlons and shadows agreeing to leave wasn't part of their plan all along. the whole thing could have been a test to see if the various races were ready to leave the cradle as it were. perhaps failing to pass the test the first time around. rather than each race choosing one side or the other, choosing their own way instead. if they were really at war they would have destroyed eachother long ago younger races be damned. instead i see them in a shepherding role, their conflict is not about them.

i think they could have made it work even losing some main characters, or they would have done their thing, instilling order, knocking over some anthills and went quiet for another few thousand years. they are clearly playing the long game here and can tolerate huge setbacks. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Nuke

[hendrack]

Maybe you are right, though Delenn said in the last war the Vorlons and Shadows adhered to some code of conduct. My personal belief is that the Vorlons were not expecting that outcome. Maybe the Kosh that stuck with Sheridan nudged him in a way as to break that cycle.

Edited July 11, 2020 by hendrack