The Elcano Challenge: Ground-Based Circumnavigation (4th)

[Pouicpouic]

Hmmmm, forgot to post here the video of my second circumnavigation of Duna a month ago. After a impressive 8h15 IGT around the Mun, here is Duna in less than 9h IGT!

To clarify, I am sure I'll do another Mun circumnavigation one day, but never again at this speed on Duna... In my head I had calculated that it was possible to do it in less than 9 hours, so I tried it, but it's one of the least interesting so far: at this speed, it's impossible to do routing, impossible to look at the landscape, you have to be constantly aware of your speed in relation to the jump you're going to make on the next dune. it's really boring and exhausting: I don't recommend it to anyone.

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[OJT]

Hello lads
I haven't posted in a while: my exam phase have been somewhat intense. It is not over yet, but I wanted to drop by and tell that my Parallax Elcano run is still alive! I found a bit of time to do a quick sesh and covered 120 km: I reached Lowlands by now and it is easier to keep higher speeds due to smoother elevation changes. Still managed to flip the rover once, but I reloaded the savefile and continued. I also did some modifications to the rover by relocating some of the solar panels so they don't obstruct each other

Some screenshots

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Timewarping until sunrise

My progress so far: 240 km covered in total

[Poppa Wheelie]

I just posted a Mission Report for my Duna and Ike mission.  Now I'm waiting on the transfer window to send everyone home to Kerbin.  Before that date arrives, I have a mission about to arrive at Eve.  This mission will include Eve and Gilly Elcanos, but I don't know if I'll get it all done before KSP2 drops.  Anyway, I'll return to the Mission Report later to show how everyone got home, but the Elcanos are done and ready for your viewing pleasure now.

Duna Elcano:

Ike Elcano:

Enjoy!

[18Watt]

I have been busy at work, and have missed out on a lot of action in my favorite challenge of all time.  This one!

I missed @Pouicpouic's second Duna circumnavigation!  And there is a fantastic video to document the journey!  Not 100% sure, but I suspect @Pouicpouic is the first circumnavigator to do Duna twice.  Edit:  Just checked.  @Pouicpouic is indeed the first Elcano participant to do two circumnavigations of Duna!  Congratulations!

Also, @OJT is making progress with a Parallax run around Dune, which is going extremely well.

On 1/11/2023 at 6:24 PM, OJT said:

Still managed to flip the rover once

Well, maybe not perfect.  Actually, if you only flip your rover once you are probably going too slow..

Also, @Poppa Wheelie has made progress at Duna AND Ike.  I need to review those and update the leaderboards.  I'm super excited at all the updates that happened while I was at work!

I'll try to get the leaderboards updated tonight.  If I've forgotten anyone, please let me know!  I don't want to leave anyone off the leaderboards!

[OJT]

Progress update: This has been the most frustrating session so far

Although initially everything seemed to be in order: I could hold decent speeds, the terrain wasn't too traitorous and except for one or two collisions and flips the run was going pretty smooth

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During one of the flag plants I rearranged the solar panel placement again

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One of the flips destroyed one of my solar panels irrecoverably with the rest of the rover somehow staying intact, so I did a bit of rearrangement again

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My plan was to get to Northeast Basin due to its low terrain. In order to get there, I needed to cross a mountain range. I climbed the highest mountain in the range that was in my way and placed one of the flags there

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Infact I climbed so high, that I actually reached the cloud layer

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I crossed the mountain range, Northeast Basin was in my view, and all I needed to do was to drive down the mountain...

Which genuinely proved to be the most frustrating experience I had in KSP outright

The slopes weren't that steep: I certainly drove over steeper slopes. I wasn't driving directly down the mountain and instead drove in "esses" down the hill. I avoided the rocks that were too big to scale and picked the road carefully. And despite all that, this seemingly 10 minute drive took me over an hour  . I flipped in unexpected places, disintegrated my rover multiple times and crashed into rocks that didn't look "crashable" at all. I reloaded and reloaded, picked different approach, tried to drive down different path and there was still some crap that stopped me from driving down this cursed hill

Screenshots of some of the crashes below

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One

Two

Three

To make things even more ridiculous, one crash was apparently so violent that it broke all of my savefiles: trying to reload showed infinite loading. Pause button somehow worked though, but it showed some hellish void

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THANKFULLY, restarting the game fixed this issue, and eventually I did make it down the hill! I immediately made a new savefile... and, after driving around 500 meters, violently crashed again

After this, I decided to save me some nerve cells and called it a day. Even despite the very bitter end, it was a pretty good stint: I covered 250 kilometers, starting from Checkpoint 11 and finishing a bit further from Checkpoint 23. This brings the total distance covered to 490 km, almost making it 1/4 of the way around Duna

I lowkey regret ever starting this damn run

Edited January 18, 2023 by OJT

[18Watt]

3 minutes ago, OJT said:

Infact I climbed so high, that I actually reached the cloud layer

That is really really cool!

4 minutes ago, OJT said:

Which genuinely proved to be the most frustrating experience I had in KSP outright

I still can't believe you've come over to the dark side of the force, using rovers and such.

5 minutes ago, OJT said:

Screenshots of some of the crashes below

Ah, you're bringing back some fond memories for me!

Enjoying your posts @OJT!  I very much hope that rovering works much better in KSP2.  Love your rover design by the way.

 

[OJT]

9 minutes ago, 18Watt said:

I still can't believe you've come over to the dark side of the force, using rovers and such

I guess it's the game fatique? I've done pretty much everything the game has to offer, from barely level flying planes to interplanetary SSTOs, from my first janky Mun landing all the way to doing Jool 5 twice, the list goes on and on and on. Driving around an entire planet is pretty much the only thing I haven't attempted yet, and even then I only started because Parallax 2.0 offered some variety to driving instead of "Hold W and don't fall asleep" and because I found a mod for somewhat working rover wheels

15 minutes ago, 18Watt said:

Ah, you're bringing back some fond memories for me!

You people really are some very disturbed individuals 

[damerell]

I've hit a bit of a wrinkle on Pol; sometimes the ground isn't sure where it is. My wheels sink into it until the bottom of the suspension arm hits it (so why's it solid to one bit of the part and not another?), situation flickers between In Space Low and Landed, "cannot save when about to crash", and I get almost no traction and can't go anywhere. Anyone seen anything like this?

I suspect I'll start investigating by loading an older save and landing afresh. I'm not a long way into Pol at all.

[OJT]

Progress update: Did another stint. It went much calmer than the last one, even if I did crash my rover twice
 

Spoiler

 

Covered 210 km in this stint, (from halfway between Checkpoint 23 and Checkpoint 24) to Checkpoint 34. 700 km in total

Bonus:

[OJT]

Progress update: did some more driving. Was pretty relaxed stint: only one crash . Says a lot about the nature of Elcano runs when you only have 1 crash lmao
 

Spoiler

I reached Midland Sea, the area with lowest elevations on Duna if I am not mistaken. Infact I was getting so low that there was a permanent dust "haze?" at altitudes below 500 meters which limited my visibility
 

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I eventually climbed back a bit and the skyline became clearer again

Today's stint was 160 km long. Total distance is 860 km

 

[OJT]

Progress update: did a couple of stints in the last two days. I did crash the rover couple of times, but the stints have gone swimmingly: the terrain actually became really nice, very smooth transitions and rocks have been smaller than usual. I can keep the speed at around 20-25 m/s and not be too afraid of hitting a rock. I have also started to space the checkpoints a bit wider, placing a flag every 40 km instead of every 20 km while making intermediate quicksaves in between in case I crash
 

Spoiler

All of the stints combined have been 340 km, bringing the total to 1200 km. This officially brings me more than halfway across the planet. Soon I will be done with this ****

@18Watt Seeing your Elcano achievements, you must've really enjoyed Death Stranding (if you played it of course)

 

Bonus: small crash compilation
 

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[OJT]

Progress update: Another couple of stints completed. Terrain got noticeably worse at one point, which led to multiple crashes and one irrecoverable flip. Fortunately, it got better and the rest of the trip was pretty smooth

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Covered 480 km during these stints. 1680 km in total: finish line is not far away now! I think I will reach it in next couple of days if all goes well

Bonus: Crashes and flips

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Bonus 2: Solar eclipse during one of the stints

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[damerell]

I'm around Pol: screenshots and a rather terse writeup here: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146923-elcano-iv-circumnavigate-all-the-things/&do=findComment&comment=4226039

Not much to say about Pol, really. Pretty easy going if you keep the speed reasonable.

[OJT]

Quick update: Things have slowed down noticeably. Partly due to some IRL stuff. But mostly due to terrain getting significantly worse. The region is very mountainous, which would be a challenge by itself in stock game, but the Parallax rocks just raises the jank to next level. The amount of times I flipped, crashed or obliterated my rover in the last couple of stints easily outnumbers the amount of accidents I had in all of the rest of my journey. Once I irrecoverably flipped the rover just 100 meters after stopping to make a quicksave. I crashed twice due to hitting invisible rocks. I also got irrecoverably stuck once on another invisible rock. Name a thing and it probably happened

Now don't get me wrong, I am not abandoning the run (especially since I am so close to completing it). I still make steady(-ish) progress, it's just the progress is much slower now and my initial estimate of...

On 1/29/2023 at 9:44 PM, OJT said:

I think I will reach it in next couple of days if all goes well

... has proven to be too optimistic

Have a couple of screens of some of my crashes. And BELIEVE ME, I crashed/flipped very often and making a snap for every single one would be wasteful

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Bonus: me getting stuck on an invisible rock. I actually had to reload to latest save because of this BS

[Sp1f]

Finally getting back to my Elcano run on Vall, which I began some time ago if anyone remembers. I'm hoping to finish it up before ksp2.

Back in July, to recap, I landed Rover 1 on Vall. This was the same early career mode science rover that I had used to make several landings on Mun, and to complete a Minmus Elcano. I intended to begin and end my run at Vallhenge, but was unable to find it until I uninstalled Parallax and dropped from the sky 200m directly above it.

Spoiler

Fortunately, Rover 1 seemed to be ok. The lander was destroyed, but that's probably ok too, since I intend to switch to KSP2 about the time that I finish this one anyway.

Valentina, Buzz and Wendo plant the first flag.

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They head south and soon spot Jool over the horizon.

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Things quickly get weird.

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The south pole itself is horrifying.

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Escaping the south pole was trickier than approaching it, as the slope was very steep.

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Heading north

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Buzz and Wendo take in the view

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Progress so far, about 500km

 

[Zacspace]

9 hours ago, OJT said:

Parallax rocks just raises the jank to next level

Honestly impressive that you even attempted it. When I tried Parallax, basically none of my rovers could reliably handle even the little rocks that are all over the place. I have to imagine that KF wheels have less trouble with Parallax terrain than stock ones, but even so, that would only make it possible, not easy. You went and turned Duna into a planet sized off road trail and then drove almost the whole thing. Madman.

 

But I didn't just come here to talk about how impressed I am with OJT's insanity, I've also been doing some circumnavigating:

On Moho, quite some time ago, I landed the latest, battle-tested version of my largest rover on Moho with the intention of doing the thing. Moho sucks. At first I persevered because I was pretty sure half of the planet sucked less, But I eventually stopped making progress. I recently confirmed that at least some of that half of that planet has reasonably navigable terrain.

Look how flat that terrain is! I don't know how long it's going to remain so easy for. I've been playing with the idea of abandoning this big thing and completing the mission in the little rover it keeps on board. Thing is, that rover also isn't really designed for Elcano-ing, and while this big one isn't ideal I at least know it can make it.

That's why I planned another mission:

I packed two rovers because while both are supposed to be suitable for a long-range mission, neither has had the opportunity to prove itself. The little one, Rover Mini S, will be circling the Mun. It's the same as the backup rover my big rover on Moho is carrying . Deployable Support Vehicle, the other one, will refuel my SSTO and then the plan is to drive it around Duna after this is done.

The spaceplane is designed for interplanetary flights. It was actually kind of a pain to get it to the Mun due to its low TWR. I spent probably an extra 1000m/s all in getting here over what I would in a regular vehicle. I could probably have been more efficient If I thought it through a little more, but I had the margins to unga-bunga so that's what I did.

 

What I'm interested to find out from this mission is what it's like to drive this rover in the dark. It's powered by fuel cell, so it's night-time range is limited. Its headlights also kind of suck. The proposed mission for it on Moho involves driving across half the planet in pitch darkness, so how it holds up against Munar night decides whether or not I abandon ship there.

I have a custom module manager patch that adds the capability to all stock wheels to use differential steering. This allows me to make use of the same bug as I did in my last Elcano run on Eeloo, and this little rover's relatively strong reaction wheels let me drive it the same way too. With that in mind I initially set off expecting something like a repeat of my Eeloo mission: just rip across the whole thing at top speed. That... didn't work out. Rover Mini S just isn't designed for it. after a couple of false starts I decided to plot a course around the craters instead of through them and limit myself to highway speeds. I've made it about a quarter of the way around so far. 

Kinda forgot to take pictures because it's just a Mun mission. Next time I'll take enough to at least verify the run.

 

Here's the patch in case anyone's interested:

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The following patch replaces modulewheelmotor on all stock wheels with modulewheelmotorsteering with all stock values so that they perform exactly as normal unless differential steering is activated in the PAW. It also adds module wheel steering to the big wheels so they can optionally be steered regular style instead of tank-wise. I promise it has applications beyond glitch exploitation.

@PART[roverWheel3]
{
	MODULE
		{
			name = ModuleWheelSteering
			baseModuleIndex = 0
			
			caliperTransformName = SuspensionPivot
			autoSteeringAdjust = true
			steeringResponse = 2		
			steeringRange = 25		
			steeringCurve
			{
				key = 0 20
				key = 20 20
			}
			steeringMaxAngleCurve
			{
				key = 0 1 0 0
				key = 3 1 0.0001624425 0.0001624425
				key = 7.5 0.33 -0.05674612 -0.05674612
				key = 20 0.12 -0.003158088 -0.003158088
				key = 30 0.1 -0.002872917 -0.002872917
			}
			steeringEnabled = False
		}
}
@PART[wheelMed]
{
	-MODULE[ModuleWheelMotor]	{}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleWheelMotorSteering
		baseModuleIndex = 0
		
		wheelSpeedMax = 59
		driveResponse = 2
		
		torqueCurve
		{
			key = 0 2.0 0 0
			key = 10 1.4 0 0
			key = 52 0.5 0 0
			key = 58 0 0 0
		}
		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate = 3.5//7
		}		
		idleDrain = 0.0
		steeringTorque = 2
		motorEnabled = True
		steeringEnabled = False
	}
}
@PART[roverWheel1]
{
	-MODULE[ModuleWheelMotor]	{}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleWheelMotorSteering
		baseModuleIndex = 0
		
		wheelSpeedMax = 42
		driveResponse = 2
		
		torqueCurve
		{
			key = 0 1.0 0 0
			key = 10  0.66 0//20  0.66 0
			key = 30 0.14 0 0//40 0.14 0 0
			key = 34 0 0 0//44 0 0 0
		}
		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate = 2.5//5
		}		
		idleDrain = 0.0
		steeringTorque = 1
		motorEnabled = True
		steeringEnabled = False
	}
}
@PART[roverWheel2]
{
	-MODULE[ModuleWheelMotor]	{}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleWheelMotorSteering
		baseModuleIndex = 0
		
		wheelSpeedMax = 11
		driveResponse = 2
		
		torqueCurve
		{
			key = 0 0.17 0 0
			key = 2.5 0.1 0 0
			key = 12 0 0 0
		}
		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate = 1//5
		}		
		idleDrain = 0.0
		steeringTorque = 0.17
		motorEnabled = True
		steeringEnabled = False
	}
}
@PART[roverWheelM1-F]:NEEDS[SquadExpansion]
{
	-MODULE[ModuleWheelMotor]	{}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleWheelMotorSteering
		baseModuleIndex = 0
		
		wheelSpeedMax = 42
		driveResponse = 2
		
		torqueCurve
		{
			key = 0 0.5 0 0
			key = 2  0.3 0
			key = 10 0.1 0 0
			key = 25 0 0 
		}
		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate = 1.0
		}		
		idleDrain = 0.0
		steeringTorque = 0.5
		motorEnabled = True
		steeringEnabled = False
	}
}

[OJT]

And it is FINALLY done!

The last stints were very rough, like I said: mountanious region, steep transitions and treacherous rocks

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Things seemed very rough, but I noticed that I wasn't very far away from a ravine. Problem was I was very high up and descending there would be very hard. I decided to risk it

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Descent was very rough and I crashed multiple times. But at the end of it it was totally worth it: terrain was flat and I could hold higher speed, making the travel faster

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Finish line appears on the radar

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Getting closer...

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... and crashing couple more times on the way

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Just over this hill

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And we're back at the start!

I will be sending a lander later to pick up the kerbals and bring them back home, but for now I happily report that the first Elcano run with Parallax 2.0 colliders is completed!

Spoiler

 

[damerell]

14 hours ago, Zacspace said:

Moho sucks. At first I persevered because I was pretty sure half of the planet sucked less, But I eventually stopped making progress. I recently confirmed that at least some of that half of that planet has reasonably navigable terrain.

I certainly found Moho varied enormously. At times I was doing under 10 m/s (at least Moho has enough gravity that something happens when you put on the brakes); at other times I could run the rover at 30 m/s or more in nice smooth terrain.

[Poppa Wheelie]

@18Watt, I have a rules question.

I have an Eve Elcano vehicle that I delivered all the way to the Eve surface, only to find that the Kraken had taken the propellers and expanded them into 2 or 3 meter radius circles.  They are floating out in the atmosphere, apparently attached to nothing.  This is not "as designed", nor "as built".  Neither my poor driving skills nor the harsh Eve environment broke this vehicle, the Kraken did.  I can send screen shots if you'd like, but this is not something an engineer can fix in game.

Before starting the mission, I tested this vehicle in sandbox by placing it into Low Eve Orbit, deorbiting, and landing it.  During this sandbox testing I had no issues with the propellers, and was able to drive the vehicle on the Eve surface as intended.

So how does the Replacement Vehicle rule apply here?  Must I send a replacement vehicle in game?  Or, since this is a Kraken issue, am I free to "cheat" an identical replacement, and drive the Elcano with that?  (Identical except the propellers will be attached to the rotors, as originally built)

I await your judgement before I proceed with the mission, and I will respect your call, whichever way you decide.

[Poppa Wheelie]

I completed a Gilly Elcano.

I've seen people use ion engines, but I don't have those unlocked.  I used RCS thrusters and monopropellant.

 

[damerell]

I think if you don't have / won't use ions (like me), you want to plan for LFO not RCS - better specific impulse and a simple throttle control rather than perhaps making an unauthorised RCS rotation or translation. LFO engines with the throttle controlled by kOS worked beautifully for me on Gilly, and it was very much a system I'd built into the Mk VII just in case - the LFO tanks were mostly there to run the fuel cells, which are completely irrelevant on low-g worlds where your wheels aren't applying torque very often.

Of course, you made it round, so it worked. :-)

[Poppa Wheelie]

I hadn't really thought of using LFO engines.  I would be interested in seeing some examples of LFO-based vehicles that did Gilly.

I had 3 requirements that I was trying to meet:

1. I needed to give small, periodic thrust in the "forward" or "prograde" direction.  I had the wheel motors turned off, and the only forward force was to be provided by the thrust from behind.
2. I needed to be able to provide occasional "downward" thrust, basically to keep the vehicle touching the ground
3. I needed some "reverse" or "retrograde" thrust periodically to assist the brakes in stopping the vehicle

I'm not sure how I would meet these 3 requirements with LFO engines.  I'm imagining something like a small engine at the rear providing forward thrust, and something at the top providing downward thrust, both thrust limited, and both controlled by the throttle - when you engage throttle you would get both forward and down thrust.  Then I would need an action group to turn off the rear engine and turn on an engine in the front, providing rearward thrust, for braking.

It sure was simple to press "H" when I needed a little forward thrust, "I" when I needed some downward thrust, and "N" when I needed some brake assist.

I never travelled very fast.  I probably averaged under 5 m/s.

[damerell]

Ah, I see. I used wheels to go and to stop (very slowly), I only used the engines to stick me to the ground.

 

I'm done with Bop: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146923-elcano-iv-circumnavigate-all-the-things/&do=findComment&comment=4229774

 

[18Watt]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:34 PM, OJT said:

And it is FINALLY done!

I'll add ya to the board tonight.  I think most of us will admit, doing an Elcano with Parallax is taking the madness to another level.  Maybe even another universe.  Congratulations!  And I still can't believe you not only came over to the dark-side of rovering, but did it with Parallax!

 

 

[18Watt]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:08 PM, Poppa Wheelie said:

So how does the Replacement Vehicle rule apply here?  Must I send a replacement vehicle in game?  Or, since this is a Kraken issue, am I free to "cheat" an identical replacement, and drive the Elcano with that?  (Identical except the propellers will be attached to the rotors, as originally built)

No, you need to actually fly all replacement vehicles into position.  No cheating into position.

I do have a tip though.  Propellers seem to go bonkers under time warp, normally the worst deformations are while under 'Physics warp'.  I highly recommend setting the 'Parking Brake' before you launch a ship.  Otherwise the propellers will likely be spinning like crazy during the journey.  Of course that depends on how your prop and rotor controls are set up.  But my experience it to 'lock' the rotors (by setting the parking brake in my case) during all spaceflight portions of the journey.

I would also add that once on Eve, my rotors ended up 'sagging', or drifting downwards on the vessel during the circumnavigation.  I do not know of a fix or way to prevent this.  But if your propellers are only just barely clearing the water or ground, you may want to mount them just a little higher- because they may end up 'sagging' closer to the ground during your journey.

Good luck!  And sorry, I know it sucks sending another ship to Eve, but that's the rules.  The good news is you can send as many replacement vehicles as you need.

 

On 2/10/2023 at 2:09 PM, Poppa Wheelie said:

I completed a Gilly Elcano.

Congratulations @Poppa Wheelie!  I thought Gilly was the most difficult CB to circumnavigate.  And the wheels you chose are also difficult to work with! Added to the leaderboards!