The Elcano Challenge: Ground-Based Circumnavigation (4th)

[18Watt]

On 3/12/2023 at 4:21 AM, RoninFrog said:

It's a unicycle rover that just kinda keeps itself straight up through reaction wheels.

Love it!  I noticed in the video that while accelerating your rover pitches forward a bit.  Not sure if you have tried this or not, but you might consider re-mapping the rover controls.

The default rover controls are the same keys as the rotation (WSAD).  By default, when you want to 'drive forward' it also pitches your rover forward.  By re-mapping your rover controls to different keys, you retain the pitch controls of WSAD, but can use different keys to control the wheels.  I think one setup I use is to re-map the rover controls to the translation keys (HNIJKL).  Something to consider..

On 3/15/2023 at 5:11 AM, kspfreak said:

@18Wattr  are we allowed to modify non-critical parts of our vessel (such as science experiments or power sources) with EVA construction, or would that violate rule 6 of the challenge?

EVA construction is allowed.  However, any parts you add also need to be flown from KSC to your rover, teleporting parts to your rover is not allowed.

I could make a clearer ruling if you gave more information on what you would like to do.  Here's a few examples-

• Your science parts or solar panels are not ideally located (taking damage..). You could use EVA construction to relocate those parts to another location on your rover.
• You could even add additional solar panels to your rover.  However, any additional parts would need to be flown from KSC to your rover.  You can't just teleport parts to your rover..

If possible, give a specific example of what you would like to do, and I can hopefully give you a better answer.

[18Watt]

22 hours ago, Pouicpouic said:

Wish me good luck.

Good luck!!

Also, I loved the music in your introductory video!  What music is that?

[RoninFrog]

9 hours ago, Pouicpouic said:

it gives an upward thrust in case of a jump, which is forbidden (if there is an atmosphere of course)

Yeah, they are only upward facing while on the water.  They actually flip over to generate downforce on land.  One issue I do see is that I use the same propellors for land, and I can't really shut them off immediately when I unintentionally go airborne (which happens a lot; I usually travel at 60-80 m/s), so they still generate thrust during a jump.  But the point isn't to try to maximize airtime so I'm not going against the spirit of the challenge.  Here is a video of part of a driving segment:

Spoiler

The hinges double as extra wheel suspension to prevent tire popping.  The elevons from the water segment also double as a tailfin providing downforce when they are in rover configuration.  Enjoy the slideshow:

 

Also, I'm about a quarter of the way done with Kerbin:

Spoiler

The thing handles a dream on land;  It can survive 15m jumps at 60-70 m/s and can also make full turns at speeds anywhere less than 50 m/s.  I bet it would shred through Eve with thicker atmosphere and greater downforce if I tried that next.

The biggest issue I'm having with it is forgetting it's still going on water and coming back to it a couple minutes too late .

Spoiler

Oops.

 

51 minutes ago, 18Watt said:

Love it!  I noticed in the video that while accelerating your rover pitches forward a bit.  Not sure if you have tried this or not, but you might consider re-mapping the rover controls.

Yeah that's the biggest problem with the rover is it is super finnicky to accelerate.  I actually left the controls on wasd but set the only reaction wheel not on SAS only is the command pod.  I use it at 28% power to kinda help compensate for the wheel torque, but it was still a big issue.

Edit: Also, my submission should be marked as Stock Craft since all the mods are only visual.  I'm going pure stock for my Kerbin navigation.

Edited March 16, 2023 by RoninFrog

[Pouicpouic]

2 hours ago, RoninFrog said:

One issue I do see is that I use the same propellors for land, and I can't really shut them off immediately when I unintentionally go airborne (which happens a lot; I usually travel at 60-80 m/s), so they still generate thrust during a jump. 

If you hold down the brake shortcut ("B" by default I think) it cuts the rotor immediately.
You can also use a kal1000 to reduce the angle of the blades : if it's well adjusted, braking is even more important than cutting the rotor with "B".

2 hours ago, 18Watt said:

What music is that?

I always use royalty-free music from the Youtube library. This one is called "Six seasons" by the artist "Unicorn Heads". 

[RoninFrog]

37 minutes ago, Pouicpouic said:

If you hold down the brake shortcut ("B" by default I think) it cuts the rotor immediately.
You can also use a kal1000 to reduce the angle of the blades : if it's well adjusted, braking is even more important than cutting the rotor with "B".

Reducing the angle of the blades works.  I've already got an action group I use to adjust them so I think that'll work.  The trouble with hitting B is that it stops all the tires, making the landings super unstable because the tires' speed is mismatched with the ground.

On the other hand, I've been haulin' absolute butt over the mainland.  Broke 100m/s briefly.

Spoiler

The only thought in my head the whole time is, "Oh god oh god oh god oh god-"

Edited March 16, 2023 by RoninFrog

[damerell]

I'm (once again) admiring the ingenuity of @Pouicpouic's "one way up for land, one way up for water" design. I wish I'd thought of that.

[RoninFrog]

So even though I got about a third of the way through my Kerbin elcano, I decided to start over.  The folding rover was only a prototype after all, and I had noticed so many issues with it after driving for over two hours.  One problem is that pontoons suspended on hinges tend to wobble which throws watercraft off balance if they try to exceed 90 m/s.  So, I yoinked @Pouicpouic's design of a flipping rover for extra stability.  I also rotated the hinges to be parallel to the rover to dampen impacts with hills.  Here's some performance testing:

Spoiler

It's safe up to 115 m/s on water and 85 m/s on rough terrain.  I don't need any repair kits since at these speeds, tires almost always completely disintegrate instead of just popping.

 

I almost feel like we should make a separate thread in the spacecraft exchange linked to this thread, where we discuss rover design over there and actual driving and challenge completion here.

Edited March 18, 2023 by RoninFrog

[kspfreak]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:02 AM, 18Watt said:

Love it!  I noticed in the video that while accelerating your rover pitches forward a bit.  Not sure if you have tried this or not, but you might consider re-mapping the rover controls.

The default rover controls are the same keys as the rotation (WSAD).  By default, when you want to 'drive forward' it also pitches your rover forward.  By re-mapping your rover controls to different keys, you retain the pitch controls of WSAD, but can use different keys to control the wheels.  I think one setup I use is to re-map the rover controls to the translation keys (HNIJKL).  Something to consider..

EVA construction is allowed.  However, any parts you add also need to be flown from KSC to your rover, teleporting parts to your rover is not allowed.

I could make a clearer ruling if you gave more information on what you would like to do.  Here's a few examples-

• Your science parts or solar panels are not ideally located (taking damage..). You could use EVA construction to relocate those parts to another location on your rover.
• You could even add additional solar panels to your rover.  However, any additional parts would need to be flown from KSC to your rover.  You can't just teleport parts to your rover..

If possible, give a specific example of what you would like to do, and I can hopefully give you a better answer.

In this case, I will like to relocate some rtg's and remove some science experiments, for clearer examples.

[Nazalassa]

In the last few days I have tested a lot of different designs (appears that I'm never happy with what I do), here they are:

Spoiler

Speed Rover Mkπ

It has stuff clipped in it (RTGs, RW, batteries). Also one (or two) R.A.P.I.E.Rs put the CoM under the ground. It isn't amphibious.
 

Fast!
 

Test with a lander prototype.
 

Test with propellers, in an attempt to make it amphibious. It doesn't work.

Spoiler

The Box

My smallest design, there's a Kerbal, an OKTO2, a RW and 2 RTGs in it. The 5 EC of the probe core are enough. Top speed: 24 m/s. It isn't amphibious.
 

The wheels can be retracted to brake, and the Kerbal (in an EAS-1) can leave its seat and return to it later.
 

Here seen in a test on Pol.

Spoiler

Paddle Contraptions

For amphibious rovers, why not use paddle-ish things?

 

And, why not... This?

But they're quite slow, and add a ton of drag when unused. Besides, they're quite fragile.

I think I have my final design (even if I must've said that a dozen times). I didn't include it, as it needs, well... More testing. And screenshots. Mainly screenshots.

[damerell]

27 minutes ago, Nazalassa said:

I think I have my final design (even if I must've said that a dozen times)

I'm up to the Mk VIII (en route to Eeloo), I know what I'd change on a potential Mk IX (if only there were some planets left), and at that, that is rolling the iterations of the Minmus and Mun rovers into one Mark each. I know the feeling.

[Nazalassa]

Currently doing some tests... Lemme reveal my last creation.

It is currently going from the Island Airfield to the KSC. I plan to circumnavigate Kerbin under the sea for about a fourth of the trip, which means 22 glorious hours to drive on the seabed :)

I'm bored now, test successful.

 

Only issue: the Kerbal keeps leaving the seat when landing after a jump, that's a real problem. Maybe I can put a lander can or something instead?

Nah, that'll make the rover uglier.

[RoninFrog]

Made it to the Desert Airfield with my new and improved rover.  I forgot to add some batteries and a ladder so I sent a package of parts to it when it arrived.

Spoiler

 

[Ianwubby]

Been fairly busy this past week, so I haven't gotten a ton of driving done - but the driving I have completed has been much more exciting than usual, as I finally reached the necessary land crossing!

New refueling setup + trip to the land crossing:

Spoiler

As Jebediah is now very far away from the KSC, until further notice, refueling planes will now be launched from the Woomerang Launch Site (hoping I spelled that right)!

Still a decent flight distance, but much shorter than from the KSC - and it will continue to get shorter for a good chunk of the immediate journey.

Flights from the KSC were creeping towards 30 minutes in length, so 15 minute flights are a breath of fresh air!

There's still some distance to cover, but Jebediah is getting quite close to the land crossing...

As the drive continues, the continent is even visible from the seafloor, looming ominously in the distance all around...

Very close now...

Gaining altitude!

Less than 200 meters to go...!

Aaaaaand...!

For the first time in just over 72 hours, Jebediah breaks the surface of the water!

Once firmly on dry land, he stops the rover and takes a short break while awaiting the refueling plane.

Overhead view of Jeb's current location:

Padorf arrives after a quick 10 minute flight with a fresh batch of fuel to drop off

Jebediah quickly drives over to rendezvous with the refueling station...

...and after refueling, he steps outside to say hello to Padorf! I'm sure they have a lovely chat about something or other - and Jebediah better get the most out of this, because it'll be the last Kerbal contact he'll get until he arrives back at the KSC

Lake-hopping adventures, part 1:

Spoiler

Now then, with Jebediah safely parked on dry land, let us take a look at the planned route across this land crossing:

The astute among you may notice that this crossing has a rather large number of lakes. As @18Watt has kindly pointed out, it's not necessary to travel through them to complete an aquatic circumnavigation - however, I do feel that it's far more in the spirit of the challenge to avoid land travel as much as possible! And so, Jebediah's path will take him through 6 lakes, as seen above - the red lines indicate paths through water, and the orange lines indicate paths over land. The original plan only involved passing through five lakes - lake #2 would have been skipped - but passing straight from lake #1 to lake #3 would have Jebediah crossing over some fairly pointy and steep hills, and his rover is not exactly designed for that kind of driving. So, a small adjustment was made that added another lake to the route and avoided the pointy hills!

 

With that out of the way, Jebediah bids farewell to Padorf, re-enters his craft, and jets away across the isthmus to lake #1!

He splashes into the water, descending into the depths once again...

...and a little under 40 minutes after the descent, he returns to the surface. Lake #1 defeated!

Lake #2...

...lake #3...

...and lake #4!

Lake-hopping adventures, part 2:

Spoiler

Lakes 2-4 were all quite small and quite close together, and Jebediah manages to clear all three of them in just 20 minutes or so. Lake #5, however, is much farther away, so Jebediah needs to prepare himself for some over-land trucking.

It's kind of nice actually driving through a grassy field for once, able to see the Mun on the horizon.

Unfortunately, this rover handles about as well as a battering ram on land, and so some crashes seem inevitable.

Nevertheless, after a quick reload, Jebediah continues trucking!

He arrives at Lake #5 before too long, carefully driving down into it and descending into the water depths...

Jebediah spends about 2 hours chugging along the lake bottom before he's in need of a refuel - and, he just so happens to be parked in a very narrow strait of water, right in the middle of the lake.

Padorf flies in with a new load of fuel, and just barely manages to land the station in the water!

Jebediah quickly rendezvous with the refueling station, breaking the surface of the water but not technically leaving the lake.

Checkpoint number... 31, I think?

Regardless, carrying on!

Jebediah eventually reaches the other end of the lake, climbing the steep slope back up to the surface, and back onto dry land!

Lake-hopping adventures, part 3:

Spoiler

As mentioned before, this thing handles about as well as a bowling ball on land. And as it turns out, the descent to lake #6 was extremely problematic!

The rover liked to pick up a lot of speed, and the brakes weren't very useful in slowing it down.

Thankfully though - skipping over a lot of quickloads - Jebediah does eventually make it safely to the lake shore, where he dips in for one last wet little jaunt...

...before contending with the final over-land leg of the entire circumnavigation!

Thankfully, the driving actually isn't that bad - mostly no crazy slopes, so Jeb can get up to a decently high speed for a good bit of the journey. He mostly tries to keep it in the 20-30 m/s range - about 3-4 times faster than it travels underwater lmao

Halfway there...

Pretty mountains in the distance

Is that...?

It is! The ocean is in view, once again!

Jebediah drives down to the shore...

...and even though he doesn't need refueling at the moment, he still stops to step out of his rover and plant a flag - commemorating his final moments on dry land. He won't see the surface again until he's back at the KSC

Also EDIT: Rules question - would it be allowed to drop off a probe or something further along the route to use as a target, just to help get a more direct path? I figure it'd probably be fine, but I'd rather be paranoid and ask than accidentally kill the run 78 hours in.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Ianwubby

[damerell]

I'm very glad I only had to refuel the Kerbian Sea Monster once in my sea circumnavigation. RSS Earth is still lingering in the back of my mind...

[damerell]

I am around Tylo; the last of the screenshots to follow.

ETA: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146923-elcano-iv-circumnavigate-all-the-things/&do=findComment&comment=4239493 is the start of Tylo, and it now goes through to the end.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by damerell

[18Watt]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:38 PM, kspfreak said:

In this case, I will like to relocate some rtg's and remove some science experiments, for clearer examples.

Just moving parts around with an engineer is absolutely fine.

On 3/19/2023 at 7:36 AM, Nazalassa said:

For amphibious rovers, why not use paddle-ish things?

On 3/19/2023 at 7:36 AM, Nazalassa said:

But they're quite slow, and add a ton of drag when unused. Besides, they're quite fragile.

Asked and answered, your honor!

On 3/19/2023 at 8:23 AM, Nazalassa said:

Only issue: the Kerbal keeps leaving the seat when landing after a jump, that's a real problem.

Easiest fix is to not do insane jumps.  Outside of that, try using the 'rigid attachment' option for attaching the lawn-chair, maybe even use auto struts on that part.

On 3/21/2023 at 12:12 AM, Ianwubby said:

The astute among you may notice that this crossing has a rather large number of lakes. As @18Watt has kindly pointed out, it's not necessary to travel through them to complete an aquatic circumnavigation - however, I do feel that it's far more in the spirit of the challenge to avoid land travel as much as possible!

Don't forget to watch out for underwater trees!

On 3/21/2023 at 12:12 AM, Ianwubby said:

Checkpoint number... 31, I think?

Ha!  I lose track pretty easily.  For equatorial or straight polar routes I just label the checkpoints by their latitude or longitude.  For your route, you might need to use both- 20N30W for example.  Anyway, that makes it easier for people like me, who lose track after about 4 or 5 checkpoints..

On 3/21/2023 at 12:12 AM, Ianwubby said:

Rules question - would it be allowed to drop off a probe or something further along the route to use as a target, just to help get a more direct path?

That is absolutely ALLOWED.  The only catch is all 'support' missions also need to be flown from KSC (or another launch site), you can't teleport them into position.  You will not have any problems with that, I've seen your refueling operation!  So yes, you are absolutely allowed to drop waypoints to aid navigation.  

 

On 3/22/2023 at 8:06 PM, damerell said:

I am around Tylo; the last of the screenshots to follow.

Congratulations to @damerell, who just completed a Tylo circumnavigation!  By the way, if y'all haven't read @damerell's mission logs, I do highly recommend them.

[RoninFrog]

Does anybody know how to turn off Breaking Ground surface features?  It's so annoying to be chugging along for like 20 minutes and then a random rock guts your rover.

[18Watt]

Just for reference:

30 m/s = 67 m.p.h. = 108 k.p.h.

50 m/s = 111 m.p.h = 180 k.p.h.

I once did a fully automated rover trek from KSC to the North Pole, 100% stock.  Used the KAL and some creativity to accomplish that.  Trees are apparently generated randomly per save, and they were my bane on that journey.

[Nazalassa]

I think that I'll use one of these for Kerbin:

Probably the polar one (second one), it has only twice as much water as the equatorial one and is shorter, also I have an amphibious rover so why not?

[damerell]

Well, the poles are cursed. Be careful.

[18Watt]

4 hours ago, damerell said:

Well, the poles are cursed. Be careful.

I will second what @damerell said.  Be careful, quick save often near the poles.

[Ianwubby]

Been a while since the last post, but I'm still chugging along, though admittedly at a slower pace than before.

Spoiler

Jebediah sits by the edge of the sea before he takes the plunge...

In he goes!

And down into the depths once again...

Jebediah won't see the surface again until he arrives back at the Kerbal Space Center.

But in the mean time, checkpoint 35!

It's also at this point I launch a little beacon for Jebediah to track, to help get a straighter path along the sea floor (without needing to guess at the correct angle to take when all of the good landmarks are over the horizon)

And for reference, this is where the beacon is located, right in the little strait between oceans.

In any case, Jebediah continues on!

First time reaching a depth of 1200 meters in what feels like a very long time.

And here at checkpoint 42, Jebediah rests for now, having just completed the 17th day of his journey.

 

[18Watt]

20 hours ago, Ianwubby said:

But in the mean time, checkpoint 35!

Do you need to do anything special to make your Kerbals stay on the ocean floor, to plant flags?  I'm a little surprised they don't float to the surface, which would of course be bad news since the rover is on the ocean floor!  Anyway, just curious if you need a mod, or if the stock game allows Kerbals to sink to the bottom if they exit a capsule while under water.

20 hours ago, Ianwubby said:

It's also at this point I launch a little beacon for Jebediah to track, to help get a straighter path along the sea floor (without needing to guess at the correct angle to take when all of the good landmarks are over the horizon)

Again, dropping beacons is a great idea, and absolutely allowed!  Normally I'd be concerned about the beacon drifting about in the ocean, but I don't think that happens in KSP.

Edit to add:  It looks like the route you are taking will also qualify your run as a SEA circumnavigation.

 

[Nazalassa]

3 hours ago, 18Watt said:

Do you need to do anything special to make your Kerbals stay on the ocean floor, to plant flags?  I'm a little surprised they don't float to the surface, which would of course be bad news since the rover is on the ocean floor!  Anyway, just curious if you need a mod, or if the stock game allows Kerbals to sink to the bottom if they exit a capsule while under water.

I think they put a panel just above the hatch, to prevent the Kerbal from going up.

[MythicalHeFF]

Currently investigating the feasibility of doing an equatorial circumnavigation of Mesbin from the planet pack Whirligig World, which has an equatorial radius nearly four times that of Kerbin.

In orbit over Mesbin

For whatever reason, presumably its oblate shape, Mesbin hates regular rover wheels, and any craft that uses them will bounce around uncontrollably until it is destroyed. Initially, I thought that this would make actually driving on it impossible, but then I remembered that one can make "wheels" using parts in a circular layout around a rotor. 

As it turns out, bigger is better when it comes to these sorts of wheels- having larger wheels allows you to gain some pretty serious speed while keeping your rotors' RPM relatively low- and avoiding the jankiness that comes with higher RPM levels. Here's my prototype- the Rimrunner, with its absolutely monstrous wheels to boot- and, thanks to how physics works, a top speed of more than 110 m/s. I could probably get it to go even faster by making the wheels even larger or making it more lightweight, but I think this is a good prototype for now.

I'm not sure whether or not I actually want to commit to an attempt to circumnavigate Mesbin though- the nearly 15,000-kilometer distance to drive all the way around seems absolutely daunting. Even at the maximum speed that this rover is capable of- roughly 110 m/s- the trip would still take almost 40 hours. But then again, that's what I said about Tylo when I started my first Elcano, so...