Paying For Spaceships Like Cars...Reasonable?

[Spacescifi]

 

In the USA Americans often pay for new cars with monthly bills untill they pay off the entire bill.

In Elite Dangerous? Never so! You have to pay several grand in credits all at once everytime. Pay in full is all they accept.

 

Both IRL and in space sims and in scifi settings, could not pay as you go be feasible for buyimg and owning spaceships?

IRL? Maybe....a big maybe though.

Space sims? Definitely, no reason not to, if you limit supplies of truly uber craft and open supplies of them when the few uber players are destroyed by ganking during PVP.

Scifi? Maybe...but less of a problem than IRL I think.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Spacescifi

[Single stage to ocean]

solid rocket only ones with no pressurization could do it, carry some oxygen cylinders and a plastic bag and enjoy your suborbital flight

[Spaceman.Spiff]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

IRL?

I think that cost is extremely prohibitive for anything. The cheapest flights to orbit come in at millions of dollars. 
And that’s a taxi service. 
ATM buying your own spaceship would mean a rocket, capsule, ground support, and fuel. Among other things. 

[kerbiloid]

And should be fined for speeding and parking in orbit.

[monophonic]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Both IRL and in space sims and in scifi settings, could not pay as you go be feasible for buyimg and owning spaceships?

IRL? Maybe....a big maybe though.

Space sims? Definitely, no reason not to, if you limit supplies of truly uber craft and open supplies of them when the few uber players are destroyed by ganking during PVP.

Scifi? Maybe...but less of a problem than IRL I think.

The wonderful people of Project Rho have put a frighteningly large amount of though into exactly this. In short, mortgages, part payments and group buys would not be only possible, but downright required for private people to buy even the cheapest of starships. The other side of the coin is that you can use those to drive your story/plot to specific directions i.e. a trader failing to generate enough profit to pay off the debt may turn into piracy.

Anyway, here's the link to the relevant page: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/starshipowner.php Have fun!

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

In the USA Americans often pay for new cars with monthly bills untill they pay off the entire bill.

In Elite Dangerous? Never so! You have to pay several grand in credits all at once everytime. Pay in full is all they accept.

 

Both IRL and in space sims and in scifi settings, could not pay as you go be feasible for buyimg and owning spaceships?

IRL? Maybe....a big maybe though.

Space sims? Definitely, no reason not to, if you limit supplies of truly uber craft and open supplies of them when the few uber players are destroyed by ganking during PVP.

Scifi? Maybe...but less of a problem than IRL I think.

If you buy an car you pay the entire amount to the dealer, he might set you up with an loan with his bank as part of the deal or you use your own bank.
The same is true for larger purchases like an house, a plane or a ship. A Norwegian company bought an oil rig from Korea  for over $ 5 billion at delivery. 
It made the import statistic look weird for that month. 
Now an rich person or a cash rich company might buy an plane  outright, else they take up an loan. 

In Elite you don't get an loan as you likely end up dead and the bank looses its investment  
More real, loans tend not to work well in games because you grow in power pretty fast in games.
If you could take up loans in KSP you could easy do all the upgrades at once and pay back with interests in a year. 
Same with Elite, I assume if you bought an much better ship you could earn much more money making it trivial to pay back. 
For it to work you have to balance the game around it or make it a lot more grindy 

Now as @monophonic says, in an story its a more interesting plot device and might be an reason for some turning pirate or running away from the creditors. 
 

[kerbiloid]

If they still use cash.

Otherwise why not just arrest his bank accounts and bus tickets by his international_human_id (the key ingredient yet absent).

Then who needs to catch him.

Of course, he can try to live in forest and hunt with sharpened sticks, but there is a problem: the forests will soon become as spyified as cities.

Also, an IR-emitting human figure with no id responder will be an easy aim for the forester drones.

Edited June 23, 2021 by kerbiloid

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

If they still use cash.

Otherwise why not just arrest his bank accounts and bus tickets by his international_human_id (the key ingredient yet absent).

Then who needs to catch him.

Of course, he can try to live in forest and hunt with sharpened sticks, but there is a problem: the forests will soon become as spyified as cities.

Also, an IR-emitting human figure with no id responder will be an easy aim for the forester drones.

With cash I implied money on an bank account, not an suitcase of bills.  Just imagine paying 5 billions in cash. 
Some might be lost in translation but cash reserve for an company is  money on accounts, it might include stocks in other major companies in other business who is kept as an saving account you can cash in if you need more money. 
On the other hand loans is an financial tool, this is very much so in an time with trivial interest rate. 

 

[YNM]

16 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Both IRL and in space sims and in scifi settings, could not pay as you go be feasible for buyimg and owning spaceships?

I think it depends on the amount you're willing to pay up front and the amount of pay that you deferred. Much like in real life, you'll have to calculate the acceptable risk, and then determine whether or not people can go without any sort of guarantee or they need something to be guaranteed.

Sole reason why things are often lump-sum in games etc... I'll assume that it usually involves wars or battles etc. and I'm sure back in the days of piracy in the west indies you would never have anyone accept deferred payment unless the potential rewards far exceeds the required payment. Very different world with today, although the economic slump might prove otherwise...

[wumpus]

For "real life":

The two requirements  for loans are that you should be able to pay the loan off, and that if you can't the lender can repossess said vehicle to minimize cost (and minimize the chance of default on said loan).

For "games"

Real life return on investment isn't fun.  So games have massively overpowered return on investment.  So loans break the game. Conversely, if you have real life returns and "time acceleration" (like KSP), you can again break loans and have fun.

[Cavscout74]

On 6/22/2021 at 11:55 PM, Spacescifi said:

Both IRL and in space sims and in scifi settings, could not pay as you go be feasible for buyimg and owning spaceships?

At least for interstellar ships in sci-fi settings, the only way it would be feasible if there was a way for the bank to secure their investment.  If ships are in-system only or (for starships), if they require major infrastructure (you can jump x parsecs at a time, but your drive needs part y replaced at a orbital shipyard after every jump) it might be viable.  If starships are more like Star Wars - jump in your freighter and take off to wherever with no one to stop you, just need a hydrospanner to fix the hyperdrive if it breaks - I don't think bank loans would be available.  Certainly not to individuals

The old Traveller pen & paper RPG had some rules for financing ships, but that system relied on an intact interstellar empire ruling over everything.  When that broke down in a rebellion (Hard Times expansion), ships operating near the borders of factions started looking at skipping out on their loans more and more frequently in some of the lore & published material.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Cavscout74

[Spacescifi]

15 hours ago, magnemoe said:

If you buy an car you pay the entire amount to the dealer, he might set you up with an loan with his bank as part of the deal or you use your own bank.
The same is true for larger purchases like an house, a plane or a ship. A Norwegian company bought an oil rig from Korea  for over $ 5 billion at delivery. 
It made the import statistic look weird for that month. 
Now an rich person or a cash rich company might buy an plane  outright, else they take up an loan. 

In Elite you don't get an loan as you likely end up dead and the bank looses its investment  
More real, loans tend not to work well in games because you grow in power pretty fast in games.
If you could take up loans in KSP you could easy do all the upgrades at once and pay back with interests in a year. 
Same with Elite, I assume if you bought an much better ship you could earn much more money making it trivial to pay back. 
For it to work you have to balance the game around it or make it a lot more grindy 

Now as @monophonic says, in an story its a more interesting plot device and might be an reason for some turning pirate or running away from the creditors. 
 

 

 

I still think it could work in-game.

 

Just requires a few tweaks. Like:

1:  Parts breaking down after every jump that need maintenance at a repair yard or else you respawn at home base with no ship unless you have spare parts, which means only ships with a lot of cargo space for spares, and enough money to buy lots of spares could afford to explore really far without ever docking for repairs or maintenance. The other option is illegal chop-shop shipyards, but such repairs/parts may be unreliable and flag you as illegal at lawful yards.

2.  Lots of law enforcement to hunt down and track those that do not pay monthly bills, besides making you illegal at all lawful stations. It would be easier to just pay your monthly bill.

 

3. The option to buy outright full price should remain, but I think pay as you go or die should at least be an option too.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

When the industry is so developed that space ships cost like cars, this means that no biohuman can compete with robots as a worker and with AI as an office staff.

Also this means that not much he can do/invent/suggest as an engineer.

This means that no job needs a human, and no human can earn money by any kind of job.

This means that no humans can "buy" or "rent" anything, because neither a customer has money to pay, nor the manufacturer has customers for sales.

This means a pure socialist society with (basic income / full pansion) for all and personal custom awards for lucky ones.
(Mostly outstanding advanced health care, requiring limited resources)

This means that nobody can own or rent a future spaceship, and can only periodically claim its usage.

But as he can't produce any significant value in exchange to a typical spaceflight cost, this means that all he can claim is a ticket for a seat in a space omnibus.

So, enjoy your bus tour, and don't show off.

Edited June 24, 2021 by kerbiloid

[MKI]

On 6/23/2021 at 8:37 PM, kerbiloid said:

When the industry is so developed that space ships cost like cars, this means that no biohuman can compete with robots as a worker and with AI as an office staff.

Also this means that not much he can do/invent/suggest as an engineer.

This means that no job needs a human, and no human can earn money by any kind of job.

This means that no humans can "buy" or "rent" anything, because neither a customer has money to pay, nor the manufacturer has customers for sales.

This means a pure socialist society with (basic income / full pansion) for all and personal custom awards for lucky ones.
(Mostly outstanding advanced health care, requiring limited resources)

This means that nobody can own or rent a future spaceship, and can only periodically claim its usage.

But as he can't produce any significant value in exchange to a typical spaceflight cost, this means that all he can claim is a ticket for a seat in a space omnibus.

So, enjoy your bus tour, and don't show off.

The slippery slope of this post is incredible, I'm amazed it didn't end with a "space-revolution of the common folk is thus inevitable" 

 

On 6/22/2021 at 4:55 PM, Spacescifi said:

In the USA Americans often pay for new cars with monthly bills untill they pay off the entire bill.

You can basically get a loan in some form for anything close to what you can pay off. If space-flight is cheap enough, I'm sure people will be defaulting on their loans after paying for a trip around the Moon.

 

 

[Kerbart]

The likelihood of securing a loan depends on how certain the loan provider is with recovering their money. To  a certain extend the interest rate can cover that but a very high rate is worthless if the entire market collapses (read: the 2008 house market crash). So, if you're not repaying your loan, the bank will repossess. Depending on how easy that process is (houses: really easy. Cars: harder but easy. Spaceships: ???).

In a game where lawlessness is the standard (Elite Dangerous), chances of recovering the ship (and then selling it for enough money) seems unlikely and has driven the foolish banks who finance that out of business; leaving paying up front in cash the only option.

 

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, MKI said:

The slippery slope of this post is incredible, I'm amazed it didn't end with a "space-revolution of the common folk is thus inevitable" 

Any substantive objections?

[mikegarrison]

4 hours ago, Kerbart said:

The likelihood of securing a loan depends on how certain the loan provider is with recovering their money.

This is the real issue. Why would you loan money to someone who then flies away to another star system, unless there was a reasonable chance you would be able to collect that money again?

[Spacescifi]

35 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

This is the real issue. Why would you loan money to someone who then flies away to another star system, unless there was a reasonable chance you would be able to collect that money again?

 

In game or even scifi this is easily solved.

 

Put a homing tracker on all ships with unpaid  ship bills.

 

[StrandedonEarth]

I suppose one fictional solution would be that spacecraft use a “magic box “ to get around. Pick a name, any name for this magic box. It is rugged, expensive, incredibly complex, and has unobtanium at its core. Hence it is valuable, so it emits a tracking signal for salvagers. It is this box that can be leased or mortgaged, and can be tracked anywhere in the galaxy by repo or salvage entities. 

[Spacescifi]

15 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

I suppose one fictional solution would be that spacecraft use a “magic box “ to get around. Pick a name, any name for this magic box. It is rugged, expensive, incredibly complex, and has unobtanium at its core. Hence it is valuable, so it emits a tracking signal for salvagers. It is this box that can be leased or mortgaged, and can be tracked anywhere in the galaxy by repo or salvage entities. 

 

Any scifi ever....when starships are affordable but unobtanium is not.

[kerbiloid]

4 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

Why would you loan money to someone who then flies away to another star system, unless there was a reasonable chance you would be able to collect that money again?

I can recall some Bibleic example, but the forum rules don't bless it...

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

In game or even scifi this is easily solved.

Because the characters don't think on their own and do what authors tells. But the lack of logic makes better no book, even fi.

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Put a homing tracker on all ships with unpaid  ship bills.

Make them insert a coin every two hours of flight to keep the engines on.

Edited June 26, 2021 by kerbiloid

[Hannu2]

On 6/26/2021 at 2:49 AM, Spacescifi said:

 

In game or even scifi this is easily solved.

 

Put a homing tracker on all ships with unpaid  ship bills.

 

You can write some kind of administration over the whole operating area in your story. But even then there will be high risk operations. You may sell a cargo ship with monthly payment but probably want full prepayment for fighter ship if some pilot hero is going to conquer more solar systems from "bad aliens" to "our good civilization" or also for a research ship if some propellerhead claim that he has invented an ingenious new method to flee from behind an event horizon. Tracker and effective galactic police are pretty useless in such cases.

[kerbiloid]

Also depends on the local medicare.

If their transplantation skills are enough high, you can take the customer's kidney as collateral, until he returns the vessel.

[magnemoe]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:29 PM, Kerbart said:

The likelihood of securing a loan depends on how certain the loan provider is with recovering their money. To  a certain extend the interest rate can cover that but a very high rate is worthless if the entire market collapses (read: the 2008 house market crash). So, if you're not repaying your loan, the bank will repossess. Depending on how easy that process is (houses: really easy. Cars: harder but easy. Spaceships: ???).

In a game where lawlessness is the standard (Elite Dangerous), chances of recovering the ship (and then selling it for enough money) seems unlikely and has driven the foolish banks who finance that out of business; leaving paying up front in cash the only option.

 

This, you are not lending money to an cowboy in 1860 even if he had an decent saving account and decent income. 
Yes you might give him an modest loan for an new horse but not more, now if you are an successful farmer you could borrow a lot with the safety of the land. 
Think most spaceships of size would be company owned. I say all because cooperate bankruptcy laws protect owners from loosing more than stocks if company folds. 
Look at shipping for an analog. At the low level you have all sort of stuff, is it an Uber sea? for arranging travel to an from small islands or past fjords? 
An business option, I just ask for 1%  

 

[Single stage to ocean]

@kerbiloidCan't they just buy a dirt cheap black market kidney and the bank loses its leverage?