JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 10 hours ago, Superfluous J said: Yeah but how many people are checking how many people are playing it each day? Those numbers have got to be massive. We know that about 25,000 bought through Steam and some number more purchased through other means... But it's a good starting point for the discussion even if it fails to capture the whole picture. I doubt another 25,000 bought into EA via the other places and think it could be as low as 7-10,000. So we can guess that there's only 30-50k copies in the wild? SteamDB reports concurrent players. You get a higher concurrent player count with greater engagement - people's playtime overlap. So the really low concurrency numbers says a lot about the amount of time people are playing - which looks dramatically short - as much as giving us a picture of how many people are playing at all. Since we don't have the data all we can do is infer - and I think it's a fair inference that engagement is low. The spike after the patch was nice - but continued bugginess and lack of content made the numbers drop fast. ... All of which suggests they should be pushing hard on the Roadmap features if they hope to sell more copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aziz Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) Naaah. Don't care for science if I can't bring the science back because I have to guesswork return trajectories and transfer windows. No amount of content is going to pull people in if the basics are so rough that simple-ish things are hard to do. What use am I going to have from orbital colony if it's going to flail itself into oblivion once more than 2 modules are added? Why would I want to visit Gurdamma if there's a high chance of getting about 3 fps on approach and there's a possibility of falling through the ground, turning a decade-long mission to dust? Stabilize the whole thing, that will improve the rating, then keep adding content, which will bring more buyers. Definitely not the other way around. For a thousandth time, the mistakes, errors, catastrophes, crashes, RUDs, should all be player's fault, not game's. Currently there's no guarantee of the that. Speaking of which: fresh release of Last of Us on PC. It's a great game with wonderful story. But sits now at "mostly negative" rating because it's underperforming on wide range of hardware, glitching, crashing... Edited March 29, 2023 by The Aziz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 I've said it before - but I'm bored with the bug hunt. Likely because the communication strategy is very much 'Everything is Fine - Let's do a Challenge!' and 'Tell your friends!' It's like they don't know they released a pay-Alpha that is now in pay-Beta territory. Yes, Nate has written a few things on the big picture stuff but it's infrequent. I'm actually OK with that. But the CMs should be in a totally different, realistic role with us. And that is because every time you fire up KSP2 - you are in bughunt mode. The way you keep up the engagement in an Alpha or Beta is by communication with your playing testors. Where is the CM feedback? Where is the 'current bug tracking list' or the 'priority list' or other things I've seen done successfully in other pre release games? Absent. ... Nerdy Mike and Dakota need to call up Coffee Stain and ask for a class on running an EA, btw. Because eventually we will be there - in an EA state and moving onto the Roadmap features. Coffee Stain has had great success with Satisfactory. Intercept might want to take a page from their book. 1.3 million copies sold. Still in EA. Feature rich. Largely bug free. 15 minutes ago, The Aziz said: No amount of content is going to pull people in if the basics are so rough that simple-ish things are hard to do. What use am I going to have from orbital colony if it's going to flail itself into oblivion once more than 2 modules are added? Why would I want to visit Gurdamma if there's a high chance of getting about 3 fps on approach and there's a possibility of falling through the ground, turning a decade-long mission to dust? Stabilize the whole thing, that will improve the rating This, too. Which brings me back to 'What the hell is up with the communication strategy'? Even if they are mostly going off of telemetry - data needs inputs. Engagement (willingness to test) is dropping like a stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: I've said it before - but I'm bored with the bug hunt. Likely because the communication strategy is very much 'Everything is Fine - Let's do a Challenge!' and 'Tell your friends!' It's like they don't know they released a pay-Alpha that is now in pay-Beta territory. Yes, Nate has written a few things on the big picture stuff but it's infrequent. I'm actually OK with that. But the CMs should be in a totally different, realistic role with us. And that is because every time you fire up KSP2 - you are in bughunt mode. The way you keep up the engagement in an Alpha or Beta is by communication with your playing testors. Where is the CM feedback? Where is the 'current bug tracking list' or the 'priority list' or other things I've seen done successfully in other pre release games? Absent. ... Nerdy Mike and Dakota need to call up Coffee Stain and ask for a class on running an EA, btw. Because eventually we will be there - in an EA state and moving onto the Roadmap features. Coffee Stain has had great success with Satisfactory. Intercept might want to take a page from their book. 1.3 million copies sold. Still in EA. Feature rich. Largely bug free. This, too. Which brings me back to 'What the hell is up with the communication strategy'? Even if they are mostly going off of telemetry - data needs inputs. Engagement (willingness to test) is dropping like a stone I have not bought into KSP2 yet for a variety of reasons, some related to life in general, but the main thing that bothers me from what I've seen is the nature of the bugs. Just black boxing it from the outside many kind of scream of fundamental code structuring issues where what should be fairly compartmentalized issues seem to be fed by data and state variables completely unrelated to the current scene. Like how does KSC appear in space? (that has been fixed I think, not sure). But how does a body get rendered at all with bad colliders ? Are the colliders from the previous scene's body somehow overriding the current scene's body? Who knows? The degrading orbits is very concerning as it is so fundamental. I keep thinking that some rogue, but frequently used stretch of low level code, is mismanaging/mangling pointers or something causing the wrong orbital and collision info to be applied. Again, who knows? As you note, not enough communication. When the scent of desperation and of being overwhelmed is in the air on a dev team I think the best task is to step back and stop stomping out fires. Instead, take a day or three looking at all compiler warnings and runtime errors and making them go away. This forces one to peruse the code at a higher level and often getting rid of some simple compiler warnings clears up a cascade of issues Edited March 29, 2023 by darthgently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 2 minutes ago, darthgently said: degrading orbits Is certainly weird. I found that changes to the name of the craft activated the thrusters. Hitting the Shift key to capitalize or using a z or x in the name = random direction firing. People have tried naming ships in the VAB only to have typing m send them to the map. Like, huh? No. It's not a game that can be played or enjoyed at this time. Fantastic, unrealized potential. 1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: ... suggests they should be pushing hard on the Roadmap features if they hope to sell more copies. 50 minutes ago, The Aziz said: Naaah. Don't care for science if I can't bring the science back because I have to guesswork return trajectories and transfer windows. No amount of content is going to pull people in if the basics are so rough that simple-ish things are hard to do. ... Aziz's response is dead on. My thought was based on something Nate said about people who are not involved in the bug repair continuing to work on their part of the game. But yeah - they have to get the game performant first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Kerbalkrunch Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) 41 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: Which brings me back to 'What the hell is up with the communication strategy'? Even if they are mostly going off of telemetry - data needs inputs. Engagement (willingness to test) is dropping like a stone Can't disagree with anything you said but, if you were the CM, what would say at this point? How do you convince people that you have a plan and everything's gonna get better when the evidence you've offered up so far is this bad? I really hate being critical of KSP but, I can't help it. Honesty has to be a priority. So I don't think this game can be defended at present. And you're right about engagement. Not only with the game, but have you noticed the lack of activity on the Forum the last few days? People seem to be discouraged; and with good reason. I think the entire team is hoping for a quiet turnaround. That they can incrementally make the game better with each patch, drawing more players back in, and slowly turn things around without acknowledging how bad it was to start with. It might actually work, but so few people taking interest is bad. I think I'd rather have people talking about my game, even if it's critical, then not talking about it at all. Cuz that means they stopped caring and moved on. I think that's much worse. Edited March 29, 2023 by Cpt Kerbalkrunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aziz Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 10 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: But the CMs should be Bet you know better than CM what CM should and shouldn't do, go tell them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 15 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: And that is because every time you fire up KSP2 - you are in bughunt mode. Nah, I play because I like to play. If bugs happen, I screenshot and report the next time I start the game - I don't purposefully turn it off to send feedback through the launcher lol. That happens even with games that are considered finished, past-1.0. KSP is no exception in that regard. It's a game, not a devtool. Hunting as such is for internal beta testers. 19 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: Where is the 'current bug tracking list' or the 'priority list' Have you learned nothing from the last 3 years? Lists, plans and such never lead anywhere good. You hear performance and stability improvements in every single dev post, so that's a priority. Done, next! 23 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: Nerdy Mike and Dakota need to call up Coffee Stain and ask for a class on running an EA, btw. I encountered plenty of very good community managers that didn't shot every single bit of information there is. I don't think their job is to poke every single dev every day with "hey dude what are you working on, I need every detail because a bunch of people are impatient" 28 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: Coffee Stain has had great success with Satisfactory. Intercept might want to take a page from their book. 1.3 million copies sold. Still in EA. Feature rich. Largely bug free. Same can be told about many other games, so? How's that related to what the CMs are doing? Even if you know, that ain't gonna speed up the process of waiting, patch won't come quicker or have more features because you know it. 35 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: Even if they are mostly going off of telemetry - data needs inputs. Engagement (willingness to test) is dropping like a stone There's a finite amount of bugs. People will run out of reports eventually. That may result in lower player count. 12 minutes ago, darthgently said: But how does a body get rendered at all with bad colliders ? Are the colliders from the previous scene's body somehow overriding the current scene's body? Who knows? Pure guess: every single thing in the game is moving, there's only one static object right now - the sun. So misalignments happen. 13 minutes ago, darthgently said: As you note, not enough communication Would a communication help fix it? Doubt it. 7 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: No. It's not a game that can be played or enjoyed at this time. Opinion™ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: they stopped caring and moved on. I think that's worse I have the same concern when I look at the forums these last few days. 1 minute ago, The Aziz said: Opinion™ Yep. But an informed one - from someone who wants the game to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aziz Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 3 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: How do you convince people that you have a plan and everything's gonna get better when the evidence you've offered up so far is this bad? Exactly. People are already not believing what they're saying, so saying more won't change a thing. 4 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: And you're right about engagement. Not only with the game, but have you noticed the lack of activity on the Forum the last few days? People seem to be discouraged; and with good reason. 3 days until stats in TOTM, we'll see if what you're claiming is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 6 minutes ago, The Aziz said: stats in TOTM Do they give granularity by day of the month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKerbal Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 30 minutes ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: And you're right about engagement. Not only with the game, but have you noticed the lack of activity on the Forum the last few days? People seem to be discouraged; and with good reason. Well, there are other simulations that run smoothly and satisfactorily, like Juno: New Origins, that might catch their attention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Kerbalkrunch Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 24 minutes ago, The Aziz said: 3 days until stats in TOTM, we'll see if what you're claiming is true. Not really a claim. Just an observation. I haven't seen much engagement the past few days. Not many new threads opened. Which was why I opened one that you were not a fan of . The idea was to get people talking and lighten things up a bit. Most threads are gloom and doom now (with good reason), so some humor or positivity might stimulate more conversation. Preferably of the good-natured variety. And I actually agree about the silent approach for the staff, I think it's their best bet right now. They're better off to wait for a significant improvement, then come out and say "hey guys, sorry, we were hard at work, couldn't talk, but look at what we've done!". If it really was an improvement, they'd be forgiven instantly. 10 minutes ago, TomKerbal said: Well, there are other simulations that run smoothly and satisfactorily, like Juno: New Origins, that might catch their attention... Exactly right. That's what I mean about people losing interest and moving on. They also might be casting an eye toward the future for Harvester's new game. Looks like an atmospheric KSP. Gonna scratch a lot of nostalgia itches for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluke Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: They also might be casting an eye toward the future for Harvester's new game. Looks like an atmospheric KSP. Gonna scratch a lot of nostalgia itches for people. There was an absolute gold nugget from him about EA in an article too ""Now I wonder if I were releasing KSP again, now, if it would've gone well. The general feeling towards early access has changed so much. People expect a more polished and finished product." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Fluke said: There was an absolute gold nugget from him about EA in an article too ""Now I wonder if I were releasing KSP again, now, if it would've gone well. The general feeling towards early access has changed so much. People expect a more polished and finished product." Back when he did it - EA was where small studios could release a quirky indy game and get some funding to continue. Now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Kerbalkrunch Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Just now, Fluke said: There was an absolute gold nugget from him about EA in an article too ""Now I wonder if I were releasing KSP again, now, if it would've gone well. The general feeling towards early access has changed so much. People expect a more polished and finished product." Yeah, I zeroed in on that right away as well. Felt like a pat on the shoulder of some old friends who are maybe working on KSP2. It was a nice gesture on his part, but not sure the comparison is quite right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluke Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 1 minute ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: Yeah, I zeroed in on that right away as well. Felt like a pat on the shoulder of some old friends who are maybe working on KSP2. It was a nice gesture on his part, but not sure the comparison is quite right. Definitely sounded like a pat on yhe shoulder. Not quite right in the fact that the landscape has changed since then. But today, the way KSP1 was released? I dont think it would've survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Fluke said: Definitely sounded like a pat on yhe shoulder. Not quite right in the fact that the landscape has changed since then. But today, the way KSP1 was released? I dont think it would've survived. I'm not sure about that. I think we gamers are very forgiving of small studios doing quirky things. OTOH - when you have a big publisher behind you and promise great things... we expect a certain level of polish. Let's presume that KSP2 had released in an actual Big Studio EA state - with the basics functioning as expected. About the only complaints you'd hear are those about how slow the Roadmap was going. We would be Wowzers about all the new content, the graphics, the lore, everything. Instead? Edited March 29, 2023 by JoeSchmuckatelli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluke Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 17 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said: I'm not sure about that. I think we gamers are very forgiving of small studios doing quirky things. OTOH - when you have a big publisher behind you and promise great things... we expect a certain level of polish. Let's presume that KSP2 had released in an actual Big Studio EA state - with the basics functioning as expected. About the only complaints you'd hear are those about how slow the Roadmap was going. We would be Wowzers about all the new content, the graphics, the lore, everything. Instead? I'm forgiving of small studios for sure. Even for KSP2. Am I disappointed at what we got? Yes. Would I abandon or get frustrated just because it was a big publisher or judge them differently? No. Just a thought experiment I suppose. The discussion could go on forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheollie Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 Great discussions are had on these forums, and many good points are raised on both sides regarding KSP2. But, I think we've already exhausted everything we could discuss. At this point I feel that everyone, from the KSP2 haters to the KSP2 apologists, is going in circles. We raise the same points and get in the same arguments, and thumbs-up the same posts from the same people, posting the same arguments.... etc...etc. There is a rather vulgar term on the internet to describe these types of circles. Eventually, they seem to attract a lot of jerks. In my opinion, KSP2 made a big mistake advertising the game (deceptively) to the widest possible audience when it was at this state. Most of the problems we see with the community reception of the game can be directly linked to that. In that same vein, the KSP2 team doesn't deserve 100% of the blame for that either, if you know what I mean. The only thing we can do is wait and periodically participate in the community. No amount of praising is going to increase development speed or miraculously finish the game. No amount of name-calling is going to end bad gaming-industry trends. We just gotta' chill mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluke Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 19 minutes ago, Dantheollie said: There is a rather vulgar term on the internet to describe these types of circles. Eventually, they seem to attract a lot of jerks. I see what you did there Well said though, I definitely wasn't trying to start another "circular discussion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexoff Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 In this whole situation, the position of the publisher and developer is completely incomprehensible. The game is in poor condition after "polishing" for several years. T2 keeps quiet, Nate has plenty of time to interview guys with a few dozen subscribers. And in this interview, Nate says that his team is satisfied with the game that they did. And they made the game for whom, for themselves? It seems that KSP2 is not a commercial product, not a game from an indie studio, but as if it is a product of the state, where some unknown officials laundered money and the result is not important to them, the main thing is in the reports and presentations. 2 hours ago, Dantheollie said: In my opinion, KSP2 made a big mistake advertising the game (deceptively) to the widest possible audience when it was at this state. Most of the problems we see with the community reception of the game can be directly linked to that. In that same vein, the KSP2 team doesn't deserve 100% of the blame for that either, if you know what I mean. And it's not in this very "state" of the game? And it's not the development team that released the game? Is this our community? We weren't fooled by a gameplay video in 2019 where there were huge ships and bases? Now the game can barely calculate a large rocket, what kind of bases can we talk about? There are mixed reviews on Steam right now, any other studio of a major game publisher would have received a review bombing and a metacritic rating tending to zero for such a release, and quite deservedly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheollie Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 14 minutes ago, Alexoff said: And it's not in this very "state" of the game? And it's not the development team that released the game? Is this our community? Take a deep breath and re-read my comment Zoomed out, your opinion and mine aren't that different mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Kerbalkrunch Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 27 minutes ago, Alexoff said: And it's not in this very "state" of the game? And it's not the development team that released the game? Is this our community? We weren't fooled by a gameplay video in 2019 where there were huge ships and bases? Now the game can barely calculate a large rocket, what kind of bases can we talk about? There are mixed reviews on Steam right now, any other studio of a major game publisher would have received a review bombing and a metacritic rating tending to zero for such a release, and quite deservedly so. Your point about the reviews on Steam are exactly right, I think. I was just reading through them last night and had the same thought. Just about any other title would "overwhelmingly negative" right now. It's a testament to the KSP faithful that most of us are withholding a review until things get better. And the rest are mostly just promising that things will get better; so not a true review of the game as it stands. And I love your "state" references. This whole thing feels like a political argument now. Those on the extreme ends are the loudest, while everyone in the middle kind of believes the same things; the only difference being the wordage (as pointed out by @Dantheollie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketRockington Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Cpt Kerbalkrunch said: Your point about the reviews on Steam are exactly right, I think. I was just reading through them last night and had the same thought. Just about any other title would "overwhelmingly negative" right now. It's a testament to the KSP faithful that most of us are withholding a review until things get better. And the rest are mostly just promising that things will get better; so not a true review of the game as it stands. Yeah it's quite sad, I feel bad for the Squad team, they worked quite hard keeping the community happy and delivering version after version with new stuff - not without it's bumps but pretty good for a small team. Only for T2 to buy it and squander it with this mess. Edited March 29, 2023 by RocketRockington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexoff Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Dantheollie said: Take a deep breath and re-read my comment Zoomed out, your opinion and mine aren't that different mate I understand your position, but I think that the problem is not at all in the advertising campaign or the community, but in the poor state of the game and the completely inadequate promises of the team that failed to cope with the development. In the community, the average users have practically disappeared, leaving only fans of the franchise demanding clear answers from Nate, and developer advocates who believe that the KSP will die if Nate and his team become sad. It was completely predictable and inevitable with the state of the game, and the last ones to blame are the players. What else is left for us? Forget about KSP2 and wait for KSP3 in the hope that we will not be deceived a second time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts