Eve science grab challenge

[DennisB]

I think, it's over.

I managed to land on Gilly to refuel. It wasn't easy,  because the terrain is so steep, the rocket slid down the slope with an incredible speed of <0,1m/s (Gilly's gravity ). It was quite difficult to balance the rocket with the hydraulic cylinders, but´possible, after arrived at a flatter terrain. Then I realized, there's no ore available.

I added a scanner and 4 relais satellites, and on the second attempt, I could land at a place with ore. The next destination was Eve. I moved the satellites and the rocket to their designated orbits and made a scan. Ore was only available on the seafloor and on the poles. I made several landing attempts, but on the poles the terrain wasn't suitable for landing. Unlike on Gilly, on Eve it was impossible to level the rocket with the hydraulic cylinders, because they are too weak for my rocket at Eve's gravity. But if I landed on flatter terrain, there was again no ore. I tested the further mission steps though in the hope, that on the real mission the ore locations will be different. I deployed the airplane, but it bounced on the surface without control, even if I pressed the brakes. It stopped only, after I pulled the landing gears in. A takeoff was impossible. Then I tried to deploy the surface experiments, and suddenly the rocket started to move downhill and fell over. It was already 30 minutes after the landing, and till then, it stood stable, so there was no reason for it.

It starts to be nerve-wrecking, because I have the feeling, that I can't do anything against it. I think, the game and my notebook are already at the limit. At the launch on Kerbin 1 second in the game is 3-4 seconds in real life, an I had several explosions on the launchpad, though I did the same everytime, and with the sliding issue the whole thing takes too much time.

Edited May 15, 2023 by DennisB

[KincaidFrankMF]

20 hours ago, DennisB said:

I think, it's over.

Ah I'm so sorry to hear that! The bugs in particular sound incredibly frustrating  

I didn't have any trouble landing a plane on Eve, so you were very unlucky there. Rockets failing to stand still is a common issue though and the bane of many missions. 

Such a shame that didn't work out for you - I took a very different approach (DM me if you want to know what I did) but I really thought your way was going to work!

[DennisB]

1 hour ago, KincaidFrankMF said:

Ah I'm so sorry to hear that! The bugs in particular sound incredibly frustrating  

I didn't have any trouble landing a plane on Eve, so you were very unlucky there. Rockets failing to stand still is a common issue though and the bane of many missions. 

Such a shame that didn't work out for you - I took a very different approach (DM me if you want to know what I did) but I really thought your way was going to work!

I had no problems with the plane as I beamed it alone to Eve. This was the first time I could deploy it from the rocket after landing, before the rocket fell over.

Maybe I'll try it after my vacation again. Maybe I need only a new rocket, which isn't as tall as this one. It must be only tall enough to put the plane on it.

[KincaidFrankMF]

3 hours ago, DennisB said:

Maybe I'll try it after my vacation again. Maybe I need only a new rocket, which isn't as tall as this one. It must be only tall enough to put the plane on it.

Hope so! I'm rooting for you man.

[DennisB]

I made a new attempt yesterday. I improved the deploying mechanism of the plane, because my theory is, that the reason for the bouncing of the plane could be a damage of the landing gear, because of hitting the surface too hard. Of course, this added a little more mass to the rocket, which caused fuel shortage at Kerbin ascent. As I told earlier, I'm already at the edge with mass and parts, so I can't really add more fuel to the rocket.

I tried an older game with a different ore distribution. I made surface scans, and I think, there aren't any flat areas on Eve, which are large enough, to land this rocket safely. It's simply too tall. Because I'm a beginner, I started with a quite conservative design. Now it's time to make it more innovative. The mission plan and the other parts should be good, I "only" need a new rocket, which can carry everything and which is more optimized for Eve (less mass, less height, more width).

[KincaidFrankMF]

16 hours ago, DennisB said:

I made a new attempt yesterday. I improved the deploying mechanism of the plane, because my theory is, that the reason for the bouncing of the plane could be a damage of the landing gear, because of hitting the surface too hard.

I'm trying to build a plane at the moment which kicks & bucks as soon as I send it to the runway (no engines active or anything else!) There are still some annoying bugs around.

Hope the new attempt goes well for you

[DennisB]

I think, I have a new Eve rocket. It has only 1/3  launch mass on Eve, compared to the old one, it's only 18m tall (instead of 44m), it has a little less dv, but should be enough. It's such a difference, that everything happens in "real time" and not in slowmotion . Now I have to design a new construction to transport the plane, because the old one doesn't fit to the new rocket. The weight and drag asymmetry at Eve descent will be a much larger issue than before.

Edited July 3, 2023 by DennisB

[KincaidFrankMF]

3 hours ago, DennisB said:

I think, I have a new Eve rocket. It has only 1/3  launch mass on Eve, compared to the old one

That's a huge improvement!

[DennisB]

Tonight I had my first kraken attack. It happened 2000m above the launch pad, and sent me to this trajectory.

I said at my old rocket, that I'm probably close to the limit with 630 parts, this time, I was definitely over the limit with 670 parts. I have to use larger fuel tanks, to reduce part count, but then....

 

[KincaidFrankMF]

That's a weird bug, especially running without mods. You're not having any luck on this one!

[DennisB]

Problem solved, and I managed to get to Kerbin orbit for the first time with the new rocket.

I decided to not take relay satellites with me, that makes 51 parts less. I hope, I won't worry about it. It will take probably longer to find a good landing spot on Eve, but I hope, the new rocket can land on a light hilly terrain, so it's not so critical. The docking with the return stage in low Eve orbit will be more challenging.

With the recently added fuel tanks and engines, the handling is quite difficult, but I managed to get somehow into Kerbin orbit, with a really ineffective gravity turn. The launch mass on Kerbin is roughly the half of the old rocket.

The next step will be the Eve landing. I made it already with the rocket only, let's see how it works with the plane and the mining unit attached. I think, the entry heat will be more severe, than with the old rocket, I hope, the solar panels will survive it. On the final test and during the mission I will be tested in patience, because I have only 2 Nerv engines on my transfer stage. This means a burn time of over 4000s from Kerbin to Gilly, and the same again from Gilly to Eve. I think, after this I can build vessels with ion engines .

[KincaidFrankMF]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:41 PM, DennisB said:

Problem solved, and I managed to get to Kerbin orbit for the first time with the new rocket.

Well done, and good luck with the next stage!

[DennisB]

After I solved some minor problems, I tried a landing on Eve today. It was far from perfect. The issue with asymmetry is really bad, I think, I need some aerodynamic devices to make the vessel more controllable. I have some huge wings at Kerbin ascent, maybe I should keep some of them for Eve descent. The asymmetry at Kerbin ascent isn't as bad, because there I have the plane on one side, the mining unit and the return stage on the other side, but at Eve I leave the return stage in orbit.

I managed not to burn in the atmosphere though, but the SRS could stabilize the rocket only at half thrust. At a height of 1000m I accidentally decoupled the airplane, but it doesn't matter in this case, because the rocket bounced around immediately after landing and exploded a few seconds later. Why does this happen, when I'm landing on Eve with empty tanks (60t) with 3m/s? Because I made a test on Kerbin with full tanks (260t) with over 4m/s, and the landing legs behaved normal. Is there a damper setting, which can make it better, or may I try to land on the fuel tanks?

[KincaidFrankMF]

3 hours ago, DennisB said:

I managed not to burn in the atmosphere though, but the SRS could stabilize the rocket only at half thrust. At a height of 1000m I accidentally decoupled the airplane, but it doesn't matter in this case, because the rocket bounced around immediately after landing and exploded a few seconds later. Why does this happen, when I'm landing on Eve with empty tanks (60t) with 3m/s? Because I made a test on Kerbin with full tanks (260t) with over 4m/s, and the landing legs behaved normal. Is there a damper setting, which can make it better, or may I try to land on the fuel tanks?

Conditions on Eve are really tough on landing legs - I use clusters of them on rockets to prevent the legs  from just snapping instantly.  It's nothing like landing on Kerbin, though I get what you're saying re. the lighter weight.

Bouncing around seems odd... Normally the heavier gravity would result in less bounce not more.

In theory, you shouldn't need too much dampener, but there's an element of trial and error to it. I haven't actually tried landing on fuel tanks as I assumed that would be a bad idea in the high gravity - but I honestly don't know...

[DennisB]

I hope, I've solved the bouncing problem. The bouncing of the plane comes from the folded wings, and it seems, it's a bug. I thought, it's because the huge rocket is next to it, and the game has a problem to simulate both of them. But I tried to land the plane with chutes alone, and it was the same. The solution is to unfold and re-strut the wings BEFORE putting out the landing gears. This means, I can't use my deploy mechanism with the telescope arms on the ground, I have to decouple the plane already in the air and land it separately. I've tried also to land the rocket on fuel tanks, and it was successful. It seems more stable, than on the landing legs, but I waited only a few minutes, so it needs further testing.

[DennisB]

FINALLY I DID IT! I landed the rocket and the plane fully functional on Eve, made some test flights, deployed the surface science experiments, refueled the rocket and reached orbit. I hope, I can redo this in the future, because this was the most horizontal landing place, I had till now. This was the first real progress for over 2 months. Next I will test the return stage, because I've never tried to come back to Kerbin, and I think, my return stage is a little oversized.

There are still things to do. I need ladders, to allow the kerbals to climb to the command pod (at the moment I use crew transfer), and I have to figure out, how I can get rid all of the unnecessary things safely before launching from Eve.

[KincaidFrankMF]

17 hours ago, DennisB said:

FINALLY I DID IT! I landed the rocket and the plane fully functional on Eve, made some test flights, deployed the surface science experiments, refueled the rocket and reached orbit. I hope, I can redo this in the future, because this was the most horizontal landing place, I had till now. This was the first real progress for over 2 months. Next I will test the return stage, because I've never tried to come back to Kerbin, and I think, my return stage is a little oversized.

Awesome progress! Sounds like there's not far to go now!

[DennisB]

Construction completed. It's time for the final test (again ).

I really hope, everything is fine now. Because I'm over 680 parts again, the Kerbin ascent could be critical. I have to test the landing on Gilly too, because I haven't tried it with the new rocket yet, I hope it won't be buggy. And I have to test everything else, what could be influenced through the recent changes.

Maybe next week I can start the real mission. I can't wait it, but I know, I need the tests, because there can be so many little things, what can go wrong. Like in real space missions .

[DennisB]

My final test nears its end. Till now, there was only a minor construction issue (a blocked door).

Now I want to summarize the science, which can be collected.

According to the biome list here  https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Eve  there are 15 biomes on Eve, but Craters isn't accessible and Akatsuki Lake isn't like it should be. Remaining 13 biomes: Poles, Lowlands, Midlands, Highlands, Foothills, Peeks, Impact Ejecta, Olympus, Explodium Sea, Shallows, Crater Lake, Western Sea, Eastern Sea. The first 8 are land biomes and the last 5 are sea biomes.

According to this chart

On 2/22/2021 at 5:07 AM, Jacke said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

the number of achievable science data of each type:

• Crew Report: 13+13+1=27
• EVA Report: 13+13+1=27
• Mystery Goo: 13+1+1=15
• Temperature Scan: 13+13+1=27
• Pressure Scan: 13+1+1=15
• Materials Study: 13+1+1=15
• Seismic Scan: 8
• Atmosphere Analysis: 8+13+13=34
• Gravity Scan: 13
• Surface Sample: 13
• EVA Science Experiment: 1+1+1=3
• Surface Feature Scan: 3
• Mystery Goo Long Observation: 1
• Atmosphere Long Observation: 1
• Impact Measurement: 1
• Total: 27+27+15+27+15+15+8+34+13+13+3+3+1+1+1=203

My goal is to collect 200 of them. 196 should be straightforward, one of them could be quite difficult (or time consuming). And I still haven't seen any surface objects in the game yet (only on pictures), I don't know, how difficult it is to find them.

Let me know, if I'm wrong somewhere or missed something.

[KincaidFrankMF]

Yep, 13 biomes sounds right. The only thing I'd add is that to succeed in the challenge you only need to recover science from every *biome*, not every situation/altitude. So you don't need to conduct atmospheric analysis while flying high over every biome, for example. Landing everywhere at least once is enough.

But, that said, the most science gathered wins. So if you manage to get everything... you win lol

[DennisB]

I finished(?) the final test. I made some last changes. I removed the emergency chutes from the airplane, because it glides so good in the thick atmosphere, I can land it safely on its belly if I run out of power over the sea. The fuel transfer with external fuel line didn't work as expected, but I searched the wiki, and it says, that I need two of them to make fuel transfer. I don't know, why it is so, but it works now. I have only a last problem. I don't know, how to transmit or collect the deployed science. At first I thought, it's because I deployed the objects in the wrong order, but tonight I did it in the right order (according to the wiki), and nothing happens.

What can I do in this situation to get or transmit the science?

Here are the specs of the Eve Science 9 compared to the Eve Science 6 (the older one, which couldn't stand stable).

Spoiler

At the launch on Kerbin

 

At the launch on Gilly

  n

At the launch on Eve

   

 

After the problem with the deployed science is solved, I'm ready to start. Should I make an extra thread for the mission report, or should I post it here?

[KincaidFrankMF]

17 hours ago, DennisB said:

I don't know, how to transmit or collect the deployed science. At first I thought, it's because I deployed the objects in the wrong order, but tonight I did it in the right order (according to the wiki), and nothing happens.

I can't see anything obvious wrong with your deployable science set up (though I'm no expert). Have you used deployable science before? It collects science very slowly over time, and then uploads it to the KSC when it reaches e.g. 10%, 20% and so on. So you probably won't see it do anything until halfway through your return flight to Kerbin, and then you'll see the results trickle in.

Looking forward to the mission report! Happy for you to post it here.

[DennisB]

I didn't use deployed science in the past. I made the screenshot after a time warp to 99,99%, then waited until it was at 100% (the other one is at 80%), but below it stays 0% transmitted. The green arrow in the upper left corner says, science can be transmitted. If it doesn't happen automatically, I would expect a button  at the control unit to activate the transmission, but the only options are to take, deactivate or rename the part.

Edited August 8, 2023 by DennisB

[KincaidFrankMF]

That's very odd - it should happen automatically, and you shouldn't have to wait till it hits 100%. No idea why it isn't working for you! Maybe try googling known bugs?

[DennisB]

As I started this challenge months ago, I had 93 hours on my KSP clock and did only some of the training scenarios and the caveman challenge. At the start of the mission my clock is at 296 hours (I worked around 40 hours on another project). I not only had to deal with the difficulty of building a rocket and planning and flying a complex mission, I had also to deal with the KSP physics, which was often unexpected and frustrating.

But now here we are, the mission is on the way. I will make the mission report in 4 parts.
Episode 1 - From Kerbin to Gilly
Episode 2 - From Gilly to Eve
Episode 3 - On Eve
Episode 4 - Form Eve to Kerbin

Let's start with ....

Episode 0 - Introduction

If you followed the thread, you know, there was already a rocket, which was almost successful. It could fly to Eve, carry the equipment and come back to Kerbin. There was only one thing, which it couldn't do... standing on the ground. Here are some pictures of the Eve Science 6 - Nickname: The Monster. The name tells everything, it was huge, over 1500t on Kerbin and over 600t on Eve, with 3+2 Mammouth and 4 Vector engines on the launch pad.

Spoiler

                  

Compared to it the "tiny" Eve Science 9 - Nickname: Quasimodo. It only looks tiny, but it has almost half of the mass of the big one, because it uses the room very effective. The name comes from the early phase of the development. I took all the equipment of the old rocket and assembled it to the new one, an it looked really weird, because of the asymmetry. After I solved the bouncing issue of the plane, I had to change the plane deployment, which reduced the height of the vessel, and then I didn't have enough room for all four relay satellites, so I have only two of them in the final spec. Now the rocket doesn't look so weird anymore, and I like it.
 

Spoiler

      

But now to the details.
In the center there is the final stage with one Nutshell engine. It's used also as a booster during the transfer to Gilly and to de-orbit at Eve.
At the front there is the Eve Plane, which will fly around Eve and collect most of its science. It uses only solar power to supply the two small electric engines of the two large propellers.
At the back on the bottom is the ISRU and mining unit with the surface science equipment mounted on its bottom. Above it there is the return stage with one Nerv engine and also extra fuel for the final stage to refuel. On top there is the scanner satellite with one Spark engine. Both the return stage and the scanner acts also as relays.
Between all these on the central axis on the bottom there are the transfer stages, both of them with one Nerv engine. On the top there are extra fuel tanks for the final stage, used at the transfers. On top there are the relay satellites, both of them powered by a Spark engine.
Parallel to the central axis there are the main stages with 1+2 Vector engines each side.
Finally there are the Kerbin booster stages with one Vector and one Mastodon engines each side. The last one has some extra fuel tanks attached.
 

Spoiler

The settings, which are different to the standard.
 

Spoiler

The lowest tanks of the transfer stages are filled only with liquid fuel, because they are for the Nerv engine, but I don't have a tank in that size with liquid fuel only.
The tanks below the batteries are empty, they acts only as landing legs and as protection for the batteries.

The tanks of the return stage are empty at the start, they get filled on Gilly.

The electric engines and the propellers are dactivated to avoid problems during high speed atmospheric flight. They will be activated just before landing on Eve. The propeller angle is 29°, during the tests, this was the best setting. The battery of the plane is also blocked during the transfer between Gilly and Eve, because the reaction wheels of the rocket discharge the battery of the plane at first. I have to prevent it, because I need electricity to land the plane on Eve (yes, I have solar panels, but I want to make it safe). The fuel tanks of the plane are of course empty and blocked, because the plane doesn't need fuel. There is only the probe core in one of the tanks, because there wasn't enough room for it in the cargo bay.

The control surfaces on the middle of the Kerbin boosters and on the main stage are inactive. They will be deployed manually just before staging for a safe stage separation.

The Vector engines have a gimball range of 30%, the Mastodon engines 50%, the Spark engines have the thrust reduced to 30%.

If you want to look at the parts in detail, I made just for fun some pictures of the mess, how it looks after everything is decoupled.
 

Spoiler

Here are the difficulty settings.
 

Spoiler

And here the inventory.

Spoiler

Some special notes to the mission. I don't use gravity assist because of the lack of experience. I don't use aerocapture because of the strict interpretation of the rules (entering and leaving the atmosphere exactly once). I don't use heatshields because... I can. My goal is to collect 200 of the 203 possible science reports on Eve.
I hope, I can post at least one episode each week.