Revert the maneuver plan delta V limit

[silent_prtoagonist]

Patch 2 limited the behavior of maneuver plans:

Quote

Maneuver plans are now constrained by available fuel and will no longer provide false projections that extend beyond vehicle's capacity. R.A.P.I.E.R. engines must be set to Closed Cycle mode to allow accurate orbital maneuver planning.

I think this is a bad decision for two reasons:

1. There are legitimate reasons to make maneuver plans that a vessel can't actually execute. For example: you can use a dummy probe in LKO to plan out a complicated mission in advance, and then use that information to help design the actual spacecraft to complete the mission, select an optimal parking orbit, etc. 
2. It relies on the built-in delta v estimation to be accurate at all times; if the game ever gets confused and thinks you have less delta v than you actually do (a common problem in KSP 1 that was never fixed, it's even worse currently in 2), then maneuver plans will be effectively disabled. This also applies to craft that have more complicated propulsion schemes than "burn all available engines all at once" as well as dual mode engines, as already mentioned in the patch notes. 

I think a much better option is to simply copy KSP 1's behavior: warn the player that the current craft won't have enough delta v to complete the maneuver, but allow the maneuver to be planned anyway. At the very least this limitation should be togglable in settings. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by silent_prtoagonist

[Spicat]

I agree, and I will just post the answers about this problem from 2 CMs (posted in the intercept discord), they seem to have taken this feedback into account:

[Superfluous J]

I agree that this should not be in the game, however the fix to #1 isn't "make it possible to put a dummy probe in orbit to use that to plan flight maneuvers." It's "make it possible to plan flight maneuvers without having to put a dummy probe into orbit"

#2 is a massively valid point.

[Superluminaut]

I agree. This is too much of a constraint.

Would also love to see a mission planning mode where you can freely specify orbits and times, and make maneuver nodes. Mission plans could then be loaded up for a vessel.

[silent_prtoagonist]

2 hours ago, Spicat said:

I agree, and I will just post the answers about this problem from 2 CMs (posted in the intercept discord), they seem to have taken this feedback into account:

Awesome, I hadn't seen that. 

 

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

I agree that this should not be in the game, however the fix to #1 isn't "make it possible to put a dummy probe in orbit to use that to plan flight maneuvers." It's "make it possible to plan flight maneuvers without having to put a dummy probe into orbit"

#2 is a massively valid point.

I agree that being able to plan maneuvers without a parent vessel would be ideal. Especially if you could set planets themselves as the "parent" similar to TranX MFD from Orbiter. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by silent_prtoagonist

[pandaman]

Completely agree.  Stupid, Stupid idea.

I have been quite patient with bugs and apparently odd 'design decisions' so far.  After all it's still a bit experimental, but this one really rattles me as as it feels like a rushed BS move, from someone that doesn't know or play the game.

By all means tell me if I haven't enough fuel to fulfil my plan, but at least let me plan it so I can see how close I am, and try different ways.  The game doesn't 'know- what I want to do, I may want to do a single digit Dv tweak to my orbit with very little juice left in the tank. 

In one case I  had a third of a tank of fuel left, and couldn't even try to plan a manoeuvre.   No idea how much Dv 'cause it wouldn't tell me (that's the root problem here), but I was able to do it inefficiently  with lots of fuel to spare.... So much for 'not enough fuel'.

 

[Lyneira]

I've definitely made vessels where the built-in delta-v calculator got confused by some unconventional engine combinations or layouts and told me I had less delta-v than I really did. There are also multiple reasons why even the best possible implementation cannot accurately calculate the delta-v, such as undocking, docking and refueling events. This change would make it impossible to plan maneuvers in advance when the delta-v calculation is inaccurate.

Edit: Yet another reason to revert this change is that when it's difficult to get an encounter with another planet, it can sometimes be easier to force an encounter with an inefficient maneuver that you later fine tune to reduce the delta-v needed to achieve it. And if you can't, at least you'll have an idea of just how much delta-v you were lacking. That's information you can't get with this restriction in place.

I'd go so far as to say this change needs to be reverted in a hotfix rather than be left in the game for another month until the next bugfix patch goes out.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Lyneira

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, pandaman said:

this one really rattles me as as it feels like a rushed BS move, from someone that doesn't know or play the game.

I'd guess more that they saw multiple YouTube players (or internal testing with people who've never played before) get confused about the dV calculator so they added this change, likely not long before release.

[pandaman]

52 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I'd guess more that they saw multiple YouTube players (or internal testing with people who've never played before) get confused about the dV calculator so they added this change, likely not long before release.

Yes, probably more logical than my conclusion.

 

1 hour ago, Lyneira said:

 

I'd go so far as to say this change needs to be reverted in a hotfix rather than be left in the game for another month until the next bugfix patch goes out.

Absolutely, my sentiments too.

[dr.phees]

Agree. Limiting the plan is dumb. Very stupid and dumb.