KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Alexoff]

5 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Fun analogy, except that they didn't yet give me the breakfast yet (Science Update, because what we have now is more like just bread and butter) and I had to pay the entire check in advance (including dinner and desert) and before I was sat at the table I've been told all I ordered will follow shortly, however, after a closer look, I can clearly see no one is in the kitchen.

Another analogy

[RocketRockington]

6 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Bread and butter, fair enough, just to give you some appetite. But you had a choice of paying for everything now, or paying just slightly more after everything including second breakfast, lunch, elevensies, dinner, afternoon tea and supper is served. What you haven't been told is the timeline. As for nobody in the kitchen, you've smelled something cooking here and there.

That smell is getting worse and worse, no matter how many nice pictures they have on the menu.  Also it's pretty clear that while the list price is going to go up, the sale prices are going to go down over and over, even before all those things are served.

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

I hope there will be mods that add this kind of realism to KSP2 eventually! FAR-like aerodynamics, n-body physics, realistic life support, and more physically accurate thermals would change the feel of the game a quite a lot and would be an interesting new challenge. I think it could even ben done so that only the currently controlled craft gets the full simulation with everything else falling back on the cruder standard approximations!

To do this, the developers must do what they promised back by February 24, 2023 - add official mod support.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Alexoff said:

To do this, the developers must do what they promised back by February 24, 2023 - add official mod support.

Which you are starting as if it's in question.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Superfluous J said:

Which you are starting as if it's in question.

It currently is in question.  We don't know what it will look like, and if memory serves even Nate has said he doesn't know what it will be.  There are far too many unknowns, starting with what the game will even be, to state with any certainty what we will or won't get.

[VlonaldKerman]

13 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And that is NOT what we should be getting out of a SPACE EXPLORATION game

In KSP 1, the MKS mod uses a resource sharing radius concept once you have a colony hub. They’re also adding various automation features to resource sharing. MKS is widely accepted as the best KSP 1 colonization mod.

I share your concern that the game could stray too far from its roots, but in this case, I think it’s fine. There’s a balance between realism/integrity, and tedium. The great thing about KSP is, modders have already found that balance through years of development and community feedback! All the devs need to do is look to KSP 1 mods that already exist, and implement them in a smoother, more streamlined, more performant way, with some calculated additions/subtractions of their own.

[SkW3rL]

9 hours ago, Periple said:

I hope there will be mods that add this kind of realism to KSP2 eventually! FAR-like aerodynamics, n-body physics, realistic life support, and more physically accurate thermals would change the feel of the game a quite a lot and would be an interesting new challenge. I think it could even ben done so that only the currently controlled craft gets the full simulation with everything else falling back on the cruder standard approximations!

I agree! I truly enjoy Kerbalism and all its added complexities like radiation or having to plan your science transmission with certain parameters of writing/transmitting speeds from a HDD, ensuring you have enough food, water, oxygen, EVERYTHING. It added a level of gameplay that I truly loved. I understand it's not for everyone, but I'm a glutton for punishment, and I like things as difficult as they can be, lol. I thoroughly enjoy ScanSat for the added measures of mapping biomes and the different requirements of data being collected, even @Nertea Heat Control and SystemHeat mods. I hope a lot of these are configured into the stock game, but if not, I hope they are brought over as mods the KSP2.

[Periple]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It currently is in question.  We don't know what it will look like, and if memory serves even Nate has said he doesn't know what it will be.  There are far too many unknowns, starting with what the game will even be, to state with any certainty what we will or won't get.

I don’t think it’s in question any more than anything else is in question. Official modding support has to go in late because it turns internal APIs and data structures into public ones which makes them much harder to change.

Once the game is stable it’s mostly about properly documenting everything relevant and publishing the docs, everything else is chrome.

[Alexoff]

4 hours ago, Periple said:

I don’t think it’s in question any more than anything else is in question. Official modding support has to go in late because it turns internal APIs and data structures into public ones which makes them much harder to change.

Once the game is stable it’s mostly about properly documenting everything relevant and publishing the docs, everything else is chrome.

Is KSP2 now less stable than earlier versions of KSP1? As far as I remember, a whole bunch of mods appeared quite early, long before I knew about KSP

[Periple]

Just now, Alexoff said:

Is KSP2 now less stable than earlier versions of KSP1? As far as I remember, a whole bunch of mods appeared quite early, long before I knew about KSP

If it was me, I’d want to keep all data structures and APIs internal until all core features are implemented and stable. I.e after everything on the roadmap is in. So I’m not expecting official mod support until 1.0.0, and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s delayed a few releases past that.

[RocketRockington]

10 hours ago, Periple said:

If it was me, I’d want to keep all data structures and APIs internal until all core features are implemented and stable. I.e after everything on the roadmap is in. So I’m not expecting official mod support until 1.0.0, and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s delayed a few releases past that.

That's a good way to excuse never developing mod support until the game stops being updated... Ie never doing it at all.

Edited July 24, 2023 by RocketRockington

[schlosrat]

6 hours ago, Periple said:

I don’t think it’s in question any more than anything else is in question. Official modding support has to go in late because it turns internal APIs and data structures into public ones which makes them much harder to change.

Once the game is stable it’s mostly about properly documenting everything relevant and publishing the docs, everything else is chrome.

I agree that the official modding capability is no more in question than anything else on the roadmap. In fact, it may be much less in question. There is so much of the official modding capability there already that we've found we can actually use the "official" modding capability with only a few lines of code inserted as prefix and postfix to the existing content. When this is done, it's possible to have your mod in GameData/Mods and they will load. Given that all that's needed are a few simple lines of code then I'd say it's more like a roadmap choice on their part to hold off for now, and not at all like solving more complex problems such as Therma (the point of this thread). The "official" modding support is not merely likely, it's inevitable.

That said, I disagree with the opinion that the reason they're holding off is "because it turns internal APIs and data structures into public ones". There are tons of data structures that are public today. We're already able to do all sorts of things with those structures, including adding parts and bringing in complex capabilities like MechJeb. They must have some reason for their choice on this point, but given the very large swath of useful and necessary things that are already defined as public, I can't see this as a strong argument. Perhaps they'll widen the arc of public things when they roll out the official support, but also perhaps not. They may not think they need to, as so much is already public.

If you would like to see for yourself, then I invite you to go exploring in the KSP2 Modding Society's API documentation site: https://schlosrat.github.io/

Edited July 24, 2023 by schlosrat
Added link

[Periple]

27 minutes ago, schlosrat said:

That said, I disagree with the opinion that the reason they're holding off is "because it turns internal APIs and data structures into public ones". There are tons of data structures that are public today.

In software engineering, a public API or data structure is explicitly declared as such, documented, and change managed — i.e. if the developer wants to change it, they should inform users about it in advance, ensure back compatibility if possible and if not have a period where the old structure is still in use but declared deprecated, and ideally provide migration tools. 

Internal structures and APIs may still be accessible, but anyone integrating with them will be doing so at their own risk, since even a bugfix update may break them without warning.

So all the APIs and structures currently available in KSP2 are still considered internal and may break without notice. This makes it rather frustrating to develop mods since it’sa moving target!

[Scarecrow71]

8 hours ago, Periple said:

I don’t think it’s in question any more than anything else is in question. Official modding support has to go in late because it turns internal APIs and data structures into public ones which makes them much harder to change.

Once the game is stable it’s mostly about properly documenting everything relevant and publishing the docs, everything else is chrome.

 

1 hour ago, Periple said:

So all the APIs and structures currently available in KSP2 are still considered internal and may break without notice. This makes it rather frustrating to develop mods since it’sa moving target!

Love the contradiction here.  You say its not in question...but then state both that it could be delayed AND internal things may break at any time because nothing is set in stone.  That means it is in question.  We have no idea what it will look like, nor when we will get it.

[Periple]

3 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Love the contradiction here.  You say its not in question...but then state both that it could be delayed AND internal things may break at any time because nothing is set in stone.  That means it is in question.  We have no idea what it will look like, nor when we will get it.

Sorry, when your said you thought it was in question, I thought you meant that it’s in question if we’ll get it at all. When we’ll get it and exactly what it’ll look like is certainly open!

Edited July 24, 2023 by Periple

[Alexoff]

3 hours ago, Periple said:

If it was me, I’d want to keep all data structures and APIs internal until all core features are implemented and stable. I.e after everything on the roadmap is in. So I’m not expecting official mod support until 1.0.0, and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s delayed a few releases past that.

It would be another blow to the fanbase. Support for mods was talked about throughout the entire advertising campaign.

[Scarecrow71]

35 minutes ago, Periple said:

Sorry, when your said you thought it was in question, I thought you meant that it’s in question if we’ll get it at all. When we’ll get it and exactly what it’ll look like is certainly open!

Well, we were promised mod support, but we've never been told what that will look like.  And right now, we aren't even sure about when we'll get the first item on the roadmap (and a lot of people are wondering if we will ever even get to 1.0).  Until we get to 1.0, everything with this franchise is in question.

[cocoscacao]

2 hours ago, Periple said:

In software engineering, a public API or data structure is explicitly declared as such, documented, and change managed — i.e. if the developer wants to change it, they should inform users about it in advance, ensure back compatibility if possible and if not have a period where the old structure is still in use but declared deprecated, and ideally provide migration tools. 

Not so much with KSP 1. Even post v1 patches tended to break certain mods. I don't know when/if official mod support is arriving, nor will it have such strict backwards compatibility. This isn't banking software, and it should be up to modders to keep things updated, if they desire so...

[PDCWolf]

19 hours ago, Periple said:

I hope there will be mods that add this kind of realism to KSP2 eventually! FAR-like aerodynamics, n-body physics, realistic life support, and more physically accurate thermals would change the feel of the game a quite a lot and would be an interesting new challenge. I think it could even ben done so that only the currently controlled craft gets the full simulation with everything else falling back on the cruder standard approximations!

20 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Well, we were promised mod support, but we've never been told what that will look like.  And right now, we aren't even sure about when we'll get the first item on the roadmap (and a lot of people are wondering if we will ever even get to 1.0).  Until we get to 1.0, everything with this franchise is in question.

Excuse the quotes as it is not a direct reply to your posts, but I do need it to kickstart the following. I will say that I've already had this post in Reddit in a much more... direct way, but I think it is good to bring it up for discussion here where the much more dedicated "fans" are, as it got some upvotes but really no discussion or challenge at all so here it goes: What's the point of KSP2? Even including all the stuff that's planned.

• The new and updated codebase 99% of us were dreaming about, and mostly justifying the sequel for, doesn't exist, we're back on Unity, thus:
• We've been banging our heads against the same bugs, caused by the same systems.
• Those systems already in place are either hacked from, or straight up lifted off KSP1.
• Other stuff is not coming back (like the commercial part of career), or is being heavily simplified like the system shown in this thread.
• For the systems that are coming back, they haven't evolved at all.
• We're still held down by the same chains: tree-based building, wobble, single part physics.
• For the stuff that is promised to come, I've yet to see a new idea that isn't a stock implementation of a mod from KSP1, though considering how expansive the modding community is, it'd be hard for them to do something truly new.
• Most of the arguments taking place around what's in game and what's coming are almost a literal repeat from KSP1: Wobble, science being just clicking, DRM, very slow updates, hilariously bad communication, lack of compromise towards release dates (but hey, at least we won't see "it's not June 30" again until next year), systems being too simple, game being too easy, and so on. There's not a single post you can't open the search bar and get a 10+ year old thread that has almost the same discussion.
• Basic stuff is still lacking and nowhere in sight (re-entry heat being the most glaring one, which it took until this thread, 140+ days, to be hinted at).
• Modding has been even slower, with little options for modders to do cool stuff and only a flimsy promise of "yes, someday".

The only thing that's truly new is graphics, and modded KSP1 can still pull a lot of punches in that department, whilst holding better performance anyways. Once again we're having to hope for mods (on software that's barely 6 months old) to add all the features that we already know have been missed out, haven't been evolved properly, are not coming back, or simply the playerbase has no faith IG/PD can pull off.

[Periple]

27 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Not so much with KSP 1. Even post v1 patches tended to break certain mods. I don't know when/if official mod support is arriving, nor will it have such strict backwards compatibility. This isn't banking software, and it should be up to modders to keep things updated, if they desire so...

The APIs did stabilize a lot over the course of the game, but for sure they weren't properly locked down from 1.0. I do hope KSP2 will be able to do better!

37 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Until we get to 1.0, everything with this franchise is in question.

That's fair

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Once again we're having to hope for mods (on software that's barely 6 months old) to add all the features that we already know have been missed out, haven't been evolved properly, are not coming back, or simply the playerbase has no faith IG/PD can pull off.

You forgot to mention that, in order to fix one of the issues, we have to literally edit one of the JSON files.  Which we really shouldn't have to do.  We know about wobble, IG knows about wobble, and the fix that exists is something IG could just edit into their own files so we don't have to every time we get a fix/patch/etc.  But they don't, which then leads to both us having to do it AND playing into our inability to trust that they will ever fix things properly.

[PDCWolf]

12 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

You forgot to mention that, in order to fix one of the issues, we have to literally edit one of the JSON files.  Which we really shouldn't have to do.  We know about wobble, IG knows about wobble, and the fix that exists is something IG could just edit into their own files so we don't have to every time we get a fix/patch/etc.  But they don't, which then leads to both us having to do it AND playing into our inability to trust that they will ever fix things properly.

That fix isn't much of a fix, it's been extensively tested, though I don't think that's exactly why IG/PD doesn't implement it, but rather that they plan to use those values for other stuff (or are already doing so internally). My best guess is that it'd affect and bug multiplayer, but again, that's just a guess.

Edited July 24, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Periple]

28 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

You forgot to mention that, in order to fix one of the issues, we have to literally edit one of the JSON files.  Which we really shouldn't have to do.  We know about wobble, IG knows about wobble, and the fix that exists is something IG could just edit into their own files so we don't have to every time we get a fix/patch/etc.  But they don't, which then leads to both us having to do it AND playing into our inability to trust that they will ever fix things properly.

Nate discussed that in one of his updates. He said that adjusting the parameter has unwanted side effects and they want to find a more robust solution. I.e. he says they haven't done it because they want to fix it properly. 

On that score, in my opinion the game is a lot less flaky and more performant now than it was at 0.1.0. Of course it would be nice if progress was even faster, but they are headed in the right direction and I don't think there's cause to think that they're unable to fix things properly at all!

Edited July 24, 2023 by Periple

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

The APIs did stabilize a lot over the course of the game, but for sure they weren't properly locked down from 1.0. I do hope KSP2 will be able to do better!

Even after v1, if there are breaking changes that would bring some significant improvements, I wouldn't mind... But than again, since I'm not a modder, my opinion is of little value here... unlike in other places... Thou shall all obey me!!!

[Alexoff]

2 minutes ago, Periple said:

Nate discussed that in one of his updates. He said that adjusting the parameter has unwanted side effects and they want to find a more robust solution. I.e. he says they haven't done it because they want to fix it properly. 

I think over the past three years we have heard enough phrases that the game is delayed due to the developers' desire to make everything perfect