The new features and parts in For Science!

[Vl3d]

Looking at the tech tree we have these nodes:

1. Environmental science (tier 1)
2. Research miniaturization (1)
3. Atmospheric science (2)
4. Autonomous sampling (2)
5. Radiation science (3)
6. Orbital science (3)
7. Aquatic sciences (4)
8. Orbital report (4)

So the thing that stands out is the introduction of radiation and aquatic sciences. Not sure exactly how these work without the radiation and the buoyancy systems.

This is the information I found about the 9 new science parts with weight and temperature threshold:

• WSRL-01: "The WSLR-01 is designed to collect and process radiation samples across a wide spectrum of frequencies, both locally and in deep space. It's so sensitive that it can even detect an..." ...anomalies?

Spoiler

• A XS camera that looks like it's designed to be mounted as the tip of an airplane

Spoiler

• Atmospheric experiments module? Looks like it has a camera on the left side, a breathable cylinder (with holes) above (mystery goo?) and another scooper or something in the middle.

Spoiler

• Another similar module

Spoiler

• A soil samples extractor arm (maybe it can do some scanning also?)

Spoiler

• A combo magnetometer and RPWS (Radio and Plasma Wave Science) antenna part

Spoiler

• GSCM-01 "Science Jr." (Environment Survey) - Science Collector: "The GSCM-01 is a favorite for smaller satellites and landers. Designed to be completely configurable, the 'Science Jr.' can be outfitted with everything but the kitchen sink, if the kitchen sink had scientific value." (I'm not sure about the logic of the joke - maybe "if the kitchen sink had no scientific value"?) @Just Jim So I guess all experiments feed into the Science Collector part where they're stored and reviewed through the Research Inventory window?

Spoiler

• A bathyscaphe / submersible looking spherical science part, probably unlocked by aquatic sciences node

Spoiler

• A science lab / green house experiment part (orbital report node?). There seems to also be a version with a JWST inspired telescope, so maybe that part is modular and replaceable.

Spoiler

Also we will have the Experiment Action Button which is sensitive to the current location and experiments on board:

And there's the new Research Inventory window which contains the craft name, the samples that have been collected and that can be returned to KSC, the data that can be transmitted (with a Transmit All button), the completed reports list below and a filters button for the reports. The structure of this is a little confusing because I'm not sure what happens if you click on Remove All - do only the reports get deleted or the data and the samples also get discarded? Or are the reports hard linked to each piece of data / sample?

And kerbals have animations for EVA crew reports and taking soil samples.

Spoiler

What do you think about all this? I've found nothing specific about CommNet, KerbNet or telescope systems.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[Just Jim]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

GSCM-01 "Science Jr." (Environment Survey) - Science Collector: "The GSCM-01 is a favorite for smaller satellites and landers. Designed to be completely configurable, the 'Science Jr.' can be outfitted with everything but the kitchen sink, if the kitchen sink had scientific value." (I'm not sure about the logic of the joke - maybe "if the kitchen sink had no scientific value"?) @Just Jim 

Yeah, that does read a little awkward, now that I look at it. Unfortunately it's a little too late to do any string polishing for the For Science! release, so I might not be able to do anything until the first science patch.

[The Aziz]

How much one string is hardcoded so that it can't be quickly swapped when the release is 32-60 days away? I know there's probably a ton of other work waiting to be done, I'm just genuinely curious what it would take.

[Scarecrow71]

I don't see what is wrong with the way it is worded.

[Kerbart]

21 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't see what is wrong with the way it is worded.

Agree. If the kitchen sink has no scientific value there wouldn't be a reason to include it. So, if it had scientific value, you'd want to include it, but alas, The Science Jr. can “only” be equipped with everything but the kitchen sink.

That's how I read it and I don't see anything wrong with it.

[stephensmat]

"Must Be Returned to KSC"  implies there's no Science Lab part this time around, or at least that the message changes when unlocked. I put one on all my interplanetary craft to farm science points.

I find it hard to believe that KSP2 won't have Science Bases in Space. Think they're saving something special for the Orbital VAB, or the Colony building?

The one question we don't have so much as a hint at is: What happens when you've unlocked the tree? Extra science points could be sold for cash in KSP1. What about in KSP2?

[PicoSpace]

1 hour ago, stephensmat said:

"Must Be Returned to KSC"  implies there's no Science Lab part this time around, or at least that the message changes when unlocked. I put one on all my interplanetary craft to farm science points.

I find it hard to believe that KSP2 won't have Science Bases in Space. Think they're saving something special for the Orbital VAB, or the Colony building?

The one question we don't have so much as a hint at is: What happens when you've unlocked the tree? Extra science points could be sold for cash in KSP1. What about in KSP2?

Would not surprise me if science stations are a colony part (orbit on on the ground) for scientific study off-Kerbin.

 

if not people better start practicing their payload return rockets.

[Periple]

4 hours ago, The Aziz said:

How much one string is hardcoded so that it can't be quickly swapped when the release is 32-60 days away? I know there's probably a ton of other work waiting to be done, I'm just genuinely curious what it would take.

It’s process-related. It sounds like 0.2.0 is locked which means it’s in QA and only bugfixes are going in. Nate hinted as much in the presentation by speaking about it in the past tense (“we have hit our targets.”)

Giving themselves up to two months for QA after going into lock clearly means they want to take zero chances with it. Which also makes sense, once burned twice shy and all that!

[WelshSteW]

7 hours ago, Just Jim said:

Yeah, that does read a little awkward, now that I look at it. Unfortunately it's a little too late to do any string polishing for the For Science! release, so I might not be able to do anything until the first science patch.

 

7 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't see what is wrong with the way it is worded.

 

It should be -

"The GSCM-01 is a favorite for smaller satellites and landers. Designed to be completely configurable, the 'Science Jr.' can be outfitted with everything, including the kitchen sink, if the kitchen sink had scientific value."

 

Or maybe -

"The GSCM-01 is a favorite for smaller satellites and landers. Designed to be completely configurable, the 'Science Jr.' can be outfitted with everything but the kitchen sink - luckily the kitchen sink has no scientific value."

 

But yeah, as it is at the moment, it doesn't work.

If this is the level of things we have to worry about, I'm delighted, btw   

 

[cocoscacao]

10 hours ago, Vl3d said:

if the kitchen sink had no scientific value

I've been in a (chemical) lab once. Kitchen sink was used by everyone there. Maybe it doesn't have a direct scientific value, but it makes everyday sciencing possible. So why can't we attach kitchen sinks to science collector? This is a yet another proof that development of this game took the wrong turn at every point. Boo dev team, boo!

Edited October 30, 2023 by cocoscacao

[Guest]

8 hours ago, stephensmat said:

"Must Be Returned to KSC"  implies there's no Science Lab part this time around, or at least that the message changes when unlocked. I put one on all my interplanetary craft to farm science points.

I find it hard to believe that KSP2 won't have Science Bases in Space. Think they're saving something special for the Orbital VAB, or the Colony building?

The one question we don't have so much as a hint at is: What happens when you've unlocked the tree? Extra science points could be sold for cash in KSP1. What about in KSP2?

As I said for IRSU, I'd move that kind of gameplay loops away from the vehicle design and put them into the bases/station design part of the game.  Instead of a tin can that houses 2 scientist and magically multiplies science, a more more in-depth lab system for bases and orbital stations that also is a part of the base/station own progression system (don't forget that it was mentioned that colonies have their own tiered progression, from bases to colonies, from mining outposts to off-world rocket launching facilities) 

[Vl3d]

Quick questions:

- what's the point of having to manually click the "collect science" action button if it notifies us of available science?

- what's the point of having to manually click "transmit science" when there is sufficient signal and electric charge?

- does transmitting science take a lot of time and resources, depending on signal strength, available EC etc?

- is science collection instantaneous or do some passive experiments require some time to get the data?

- are there science experiments mini-games or is everything just "click a button"?

- do samples have mass?

Kerbalism Science tackled and automated all these tasks and I was really happy about it. I also love the transfer speed and file system ideas.

In case you forgot, here's what that is:

https://kerbalism.readthedocs.io/en/latest/science.html

Spoiler

The science system in Kerbalism is very different from how you know it in KSP. Science isn’t generated at the click of one button any more, most experiments will take time to complete. Some will just take minutes, others will need years. The good news is that experiments will keep running in the background on unloaded vessels while you’re busy with other missions, and they will generate a constant stream of scientific value while they’re running.

While this doesn’t sound like a big thing, it will change the way you build vessels, it will change the way you plan your missions and it will force you to make tough decisions. You will have to choose which experiments to run, because you won’t be able to run them all at the same time. Sometimes you will have to delete valuable data to be able to collect new science. And you will have to come up with engineering solutions for problems you never had before. Or when was the last time you had to sustain a base with crew for months, submerged at least 100m deep on the ocean floor?

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Transmission

Science results can be flagged for transmission home and they will be sent to DSN at the first opportunity. The transmission happens over time, even when the vessels are unloaded. Transmission times can range from mere seconds to years, depending on the size of the file transmitted and the transmission rate of the connection.

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Samples

Some experiment results are not transmissible, these are considered samples and need to be recovered or analyzed in a lab. Samples are stored in slots that can be flagged for analysis, and then will be analyzed over time in a laboratory. As the analysis proceeds the sample will be slowly converted into transmissible data.

Samples have mass. Some Experiments like the Goo Container contain just a few grams of sampling material (mystery goo) that is used up while the goo observation takes place. Once the sampling material is used up, the experiment cannot be rerun. Other experiments will collect samples from the atmosphere or the surface. A surface sample for example will collect 25kg of mass that should be accounted for when it needs to be hauled off the surface.

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Supported experiments

The Science system supports stock experiments and other experiments that use the Science Dialog. Stock experiments get some tweaks, the data is transmissible completely or not at all, situation and biome combinations have been altered, the need to repeat the same experiment in a situation multiple times has been removed and the science credits returned have been rebalanced.

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Tips

• Slow Down As science takes time to collect it can be advisable to set your parachutes to open at the maximum altitude to allow enough time to complete science collection as you float slowly down.
• Early Power Experiments need electric charge. Your early pods don’t have a lot of power so you need to invest early in other sources. Fuel cells are a great way of resolving your power issues until solar panels. Make them a priority.
• Explore It’s not all about getting to space! At least not in your first few launches. Shores, Water and Grasslands are all within easy reach!
• All The Science With power in short supply you may have to pick and choose your experiments carefully. Don’t expect to be able to put all science experiments on a single vessel.
• Repeat, Repeat Science takes time to complete, but it doesn’t need to finish to get some science. If the experiment doesn’t finish you can run it again next mission to pick up the science left behind.
• Gonna Need a Bigger HDD Different experiments produce different amounts of data and hard drives can fill up quickly. Make sure you’re transmitting that data home! Antennas can be automated to respond to a full hard drive.
• Transmitting… Experiments produce data at different rates so ensure you have enough bandwidth to transmit it as quickly as you gather it or your hard drive will fill up fast. Choose the number and type of antennas wisely.
• Unlimited Power! You don’t have it. Make sure you switch on your experiments (including those in the capsule) in the VAB and check the Kerbalism planner to see how much electrical power your vessel uses.
• How Much? Generally the longer it takes and the more electrical charge it uses the more science reward you’ll get. Those difficult experiments are worth doing.
• Automate Just like everything else in Kerbalism those science experiments can be set to turn on and off depending on situation. Check the auto tab of the Kerbalism panel in flight.
• Polar Orbits You can run biome dependent experiments on a probe in polar orbit. That way your experiment will fly over all the biomes and collect data for all of them.

I'm not saying all of it should be stock.. but come on, there are a lot of great gameplay improvements in Kerbalism Science compared to the base Science system.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[The Aziz]

9 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

what's the point of having to manually click "transmit science" when there is sufficient signal and electric charge

You may be just crossing to the night side of the planet when the transmitting will drain your batteries to zero. Better choose the transmission when you have enough time to keep the batteries charged?

 

[Vl3d]

8 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

You may be just crossing to the night side of the planet when the transmitting will drain your batteries to zero. Better choose the transmission when you have enough time to keep the batteries charged?

That's bad design - you should have added fuel cells, RTGs or more batteries. But fine, you choose when to click "transmit" and when to click "collect". Is that fun? Does that help you think about designing better craft?

What's the point of implementing a science system that's very similar to the old stock one, just to have modders have to later reimplement all the improvements and good ideas back in the game?

Edited October 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[GluttonyReaper]

15 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

That's bad design - you should have added fuel cells, RTGs or more batteries.

That's efficient design - no need to pack all that extra power generation if you can just wait until you're back in the daylight

[Vl3d]

3 minutes ago, GluttonyReaper said:

That's efficient design - no need to pack all that extra power generation if you can just wait until you're back in the daylight

Then the game should automate transmission using only the extra available EC. Please don't miss the point.

[The Aziz]

I am completely missing the point. Where's the gameplay when even science collection and transmission is automated?

[GluttonyReaper]

33 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Then the game should automate transmission using only the extra available EC. Please don't miss the point.

I was merely joking  For real though, it's definitely something you could easily run into in the early game - in particular I'm thinking of scenarios in which the game wouldn't know that you don't want that battery power used, for example if you're doing a fly-by with limited time/energy to collect science, and would rather transmit once you're in a  more practical location. Kerbalism sort-of had an option to allow this by stopping transmissions if you retracted your antenna... but that feels a bit artificial and creates problems for probes that might need the signal connection for control purposes (I guess you could also block EC flow from a single battery even in stock KSP1, but again that feels artificial).

It's not that I don't think automated transmissions should be in the game, but there should definitely be an option to switch that off at any point. If anything, I'd say having it left on manual by default is better, for the sake of letting new players understand what's actually happening in an interactive way (an issue I had with Kerbalism), with an option to switch on automatic transmission available once you know what you're doing, in the VAB or in-mission.

Edited October 30, 2023 by GluttonyReaper

[Periple]

KSP1's science sets a really low bar and I do hope KSP2 does better, but I think it's really premature to demand that KSP2's science should do this, that, or the other before we've actually had the chance to experience what it does do.

I'll also point out that making science "design, fire, and forget" would go against once of KSP2's stated core pillars: flying the craft you design. I'm not at all surprised that they want to make science something you have to actively engage with moment to moment!

[Vl3d]

17 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

I am completely missing the point. Where's the gameplay when even science collection and transmission is automated?

How does clicking "collect" and "transmit" enhance player stories based on the pillars of KSP2 gameplay?

I'm just saying it's a missed opportunity to do something more interesting gameplay-wise, like Kerbalism and Breaking Grounds did. I hope this is just the beginning of the science system and they'll build upon it a lot more.

16 minutes ago, GluttonyReaper said:

Kerbalism sort-of had an option to allow this by stopping transmissions if you retracted your antenn

You could just pause the transmission without messing with the antenna using the File Manager afaik.

6 minutes ago, Periple said:

I'm not at all surprised that they want to make science something you have to actively engage with moment to moment!

Clicking "collect" and "transmit" is not engaging. In this regard KSP 2 should strive to be more than a clicker game, like KSP 1 science forced it to be.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[Periple]

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

How does clicking "collect" and "transmit" enhance player stories based on the pillars of KSP2 gameplay?

There's a weird thing about game design: the most efficient designs aren't always the most fun.

Consider Baldur's Gate 3. It makes you pick locks, collect loot, sort it, send the junk to camp, pick up the junk again and sell it whenever you see a vendor, manage your encumbrance, and so on. It's busywork that would be trivial to abstract away behind an autoloot function that did all that for you. However, if they actually did that, you would engage with the world and its details a lot less, and would feel much less involved in the game. Sometimes a game is just more engaging and more fun if it makes you click on things!

10 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Clicking "collect" and "transmit" is not engaging. In this regard KSP 2 should strive to be more than a clicker game, like KSP 1 science forced it to be.

You can't know that, because they haven't told us what the context is, nor have you experienced how engaging (or not engaging) the system is. 

[Vl3d]

6 minutes ago, Periple said:

You can't know that, because they haven't told us what the context is, nor have you experienced how engaging (or not engaging) the system is. 

I'm asking questions based on the available information, on topic. That reminds me:

- do we get a science bonus if we transmit when signal strength is high like in KSP1? (an idea that really does not make sense)

[Periple]

6 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

I'm asking questions based on the available information, on topic. That reminds me:

You're also backseat designing without ever having had the opportunity to see what the current design is, let alone experiencing it.

Why not relax, wait for it to drop, approach it with an open mind, play it for a bit, and then give them your feedback?

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

Clicking "collect" and "transmit" is not engaging. In this regard KSP 2 should strive to be more than a clicker game, like KSP 1 science forced it to be.

Keep in mind that this is your opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of everyone who will be playing the game.  What is fun for you may not be fun for someone else, and vice versa.  The best part about KSP is that there is no right way to play; everyone gets to enjoy the game the way they want.

[WelshSteW]

 

There needs to be a happy medium. I wouldn't want it to be all automatic and not have to be involved in it at all, but I also don't want to have to click on every single experiment in every single biome. So for me, it sounds like what they have is pretty much spot on.

If it's all automatic, it makes it almost pointless, imo. I could find myself collecting science 'by accident'. If I plan a trip to one of the poles to carry out some experiments there, and I momentarily pass over some other biome, should I really get science from there? Ok, if I'm in the other biome for a good few minutes, and I notice it, happy days. But to get that 'extra' science without any involvement kind of feels a bit like cheating?

 

But again, we need to have a base set up and let mods appear to get the game exactly how each of us likes it. The ideal KSP2 will be different for nearly every user. As long as things aren't hard coded or locked, there'll be someone who creates a mod to play with it. We just need to wait.