Any Modern Army That Could Actually Cope FIghting Against Superior Scifi Firepower?

[Spacescifi]

Often scifi depicts handheld weapons as DEW types. Even though they are wildly inefficient for sudden lethality when compared to a rifle or even an ancient sword.

But what if a modern army unit was up against guys with scifi BOMB slug throwers?

 

Scenario: The bad guys have both pistols and AK-47's with special bomb bullets. Look like normal bullets but when they impact they explode with the force of a modern grenade and even have shrapnel, albeit much less than a real grenade (since you can only fill so many metal beads inside the hollow nose of a bullet.

Question: How can a modern army unit with guns only in a hope to win against... THAT?

You know suppressive fire? If the baddies start laying down suppressive fire and soldiers are hiding behind cover, the bomb bullets will blast through it anyway with sustained fire. Less places to hide effectively.

 

There is only one main advantage the modern army guys have, and that's the fact that it will be fairly easy to track where fire is coming from... because every shot, hit or miss leaves a smoking crater.

On the other hand if the baddies use fog of war tactics with shock and awe, then the modern army guys may not be to stunned and in pain to fight back effectively.

Since with regular guns a near miss with a bullet hitting the ground only scares you, but with these you are going to take an injury, the worse the closer you are to the blastwave and shrapnel.

 

Edit: The easiest way to deal with this threat is to just call air support, be it drones or attack aircraft which the baddies on the ground can't reach effectively with their guns. Yet I honestly think a ground battle is not hopeless... but nearly so against such firepower as bomb bullets.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited January 6 by Spacescifi

[SunlitZelkova]

Unless someone can describe a convincing manner of building "bomb bullets" I think this thread belongs in the lounge, because it has nothing to do with actual science or spaceflight.

To answer your question, what you are describing is basically infantry turned into a sort of mini-artillery. So I imagine it would be dealt with in the same way that artillery is- counterbattery fire or air support. In this case if the good guys don't have bomb bullets, they would just use tanks or regular artillery (maybe in direct fire mode) to counter the bomb bullets.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

5 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Unless someone can describe a convincing manner of building "bomb bullets" I think this thread belongs in the lounge, because it has nothing to do with actual science or spaceflight.

To answer your question, what you are describing is basically infantry turned into a sort of mini-artillery. So I imagine it would be dealt with in the same way that artillery is- counterbattery fire or air support. In this case if the good guys don't have bomb bullets, they would just use tanks or regular artillery (maybe in direct fire mode) to counter the bomb bullets.

Agree completely. 

There is no way something that is weighed in grains will have the explosive force of a grenade.  Fantasy / magic bullets. 

OP - when your life is on the line, you improvise adapt and overcome.  Insurgent tactics.  Human history is replete with stories of asymmetric warfare and fighters surviving (and dying) against far more powerful opponents. 

Start reading about Vietnam, Afghanistan or Ukraine for the modern examples. 

 

[Spacescifi]

49 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Agree completely. 

There is no way something that is weighed in grains will have the explosive force of a grenade.  Fantasy / magic bullets. 

OP - when your life is on the line, you improvise adapt and overcome.  Insurgent tactics.  Human history is replete with stories of asymmetric warfare and fighters surviving (and dying) against far more powerful opponents. 

Start reading about Vietnam, Afghanistan or Ukraine for the modern examples. 

 

That is the fiction part of science fiction, yet physics WOULD allow for a bullet having the explosive force of a grenade depending on the energy of the explosion device inside.

Antimatter would do it provided you had secure storage methodz far beyond our own.

 

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Unless someone can describe a convincing manner of building "bomb bullets" I think this thread belongs in the lounge, because it has nothing to do with actual science or spaceflight.

To answer your question, what you are describing is basically infantry turned into a sort of mini-artillery. So I imagine it would be dealt with in the same way that artillery is- counterbattery fire or air support. In this case if the good guys don't have bomb bullets, they would just use tanks or regular artillery (maybe in direct fire mode) to counter the bomb bullets.

Now you can make miniature grenades. The US had an long running project with an 20 mm grenade launcher. Think semi automatic shotgun except they also wanted to combine this with an 5.56 mm gun. 
And think its here thing got too heavy. 
Now the interesting thing about the mini grenade launcher is that you could fuse them to air burst. Enemy hide behind an corner Mark corner, aim to the side and fire, grenade will explode just behind corner. 
As I understand this was default. Would also work against trenches. Now it had multiple modes and might be to complex also the grenades was much more expensive than the 40 mm ones. 

[Kerbart]

It's a bit difficult to discuss since we're in physics La-La-Land here. The “shrapnel” has minimal penetration power as it has absolutely no mass. Unless we pretend that it can. Once we're in the realm of “supervillains with unstoppable weapons” the outcome is quite predictable, when we're calling the weapons unstoppable.

On the other hand, modern army units are modern army units. By itself, maybe not. But in a modern combat environment it's very unlikely they wouldn't call in air support, artillery, mortars, and so on. “But imagine it's only them and they only carry guns.” The reason units don’t carry everything but the kitchen sink around with them is because they do have support. That allows them to afford walking around relatively lightly armed and be mobile.

In the end the outcome is defined by the constraints you come up with. Make the super weapons really super weapons, and handcuff the good guys, and the bad guys will win.

[Spacescifi]

22 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

It's a bit difficult to discuss since we're in physics La-La-Land here. The “shrapnel” has minimal penetration power as it has absolutely no mass. Unless we pretend that it can. Once we're in the realm of “supervillains with unstoppable weapons” the outcome is quite predictable, when we're calling the weapons unstoppable.

On the other hand, modern army units are modern army units. By itself, maybe not. But in a modern combat environment it's very unlikely they wouldn't call in air support, artillery, mortars, and so on. “But imagine it's only them and they only carry guns.” The reason units don’t carry everything but the kitchen sink around with them is because they do have support. That allows them to afford walking around relatively lightly armed and be mobile.

In the end the outcome is defined by the constraints you come up with. Make the super weapons really super weapons, and handcuff the good guys, and the bad guys will win.

I never said they did not have air support. Since I did add later that air support would work, and people already mentioned that tanks could since grenades cannot penetrate tank armor.

I guess the bad guys would be far more of an unstoppable threat against the police that do not have air support or artillery options like the military does.

Honestly the modern military is why superhero villains lasting for a long while is unrealistic, since most of the midtier ones the military could take out with air support or artillery if it came to that.

 

Green Goblin of the spiderman movies would die via multiple RPG hits, and the same goes for Venom. Only sandman and electro are tge kind of guys you would need to level that part of the city and even that might not work.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Antimatter

Is handwavium too far.

...

If I could suggest something else for you to look at - logistics.  Why in the world you're creating would anyone do what you're suggesting, and then what does the infrastructure look like to do that?

[kerbiloid]

They can wear vests made of rubber, to make the superbullets bounce off.

Also, the F5/F9 can help. Let them focus on it.

The air support may be landed. The aliens must be silly to not do it.
The same about the satellites. Start any interplanetary invasion from washing everything from orbits with several meganukes in the ionosphere, and/or blinding lasers.  Nice auroras as a bonus.

+1 to the logistics. A proper intendant can bring more damage than an enemy regiment.

The californium shrapnel for the 20 mm shotgun launcher rulez.

  

13 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Start reading about Vietnam, Afghanistan or Ukraine for the modern examples. 

All three examples are wrong.

Two formers are about meat waves of cheap soldiers, the latter is about two equally armed forces, where the R force has less soldiers than the U force.

Red Dawn and Visitors are more relevant, lol.

Edited January 7 by kerbiloid

[kerbiloid]

_(multipost)

Edited January 7 by kerbiloid

[HebaruSan]

You put "Superior" in the title. So, no.

[tater]

No.

 

[Scotius]

One sniper is all it would take to deal with such threat. Unless your bad guy has super-armor too. Then soldiers would use anti-tank missile. Or drones with explosives. Or mortars. or call A-10 flight and BRRRRRRRTTTTTT!!! him into oblivion.

Nec Hercules contra plures.

[kerbiloid]

If I was an E.T. IT, I would start the invasion onto Earth from giganuking the Moon, to make the lunar ejecta form a dust cloud, let it spiral down to the Earth, wipe out all human satellites, disturb the radiation belt and the ionosphere (to burn the remaining sats with EMP), form a dust cover above the entire surface of the Earth, cause a several year long moonuclear winter, wipe out the crops, let snow cover the entire surface (to reveal any traces of human activity, like smokes, vapor, footprints, hot IR spots, etc.). As a bonus, this would put vegetation into anabiosis and stop the oxygen replenishment, making breathing more hard.

Then I would welcome the survivors, explain to them that a rare space cataclysm has happened (it's possible, Holy Wood has already shown this to them in uncountable postapoc movies), and now we came to save them from wars, violence, and from the weapon which they should collect themselves and bring to the free food diners to be good boys and keep getting their soup without troubles. 
Of course, there are insurgent criminals, deserters, and marauders, who make doing it problematic, so they should guard their homes themselves, and help us save the good citizens from these sociopaths' provocations, and inform us every time when they see footprints on snow or smoke above the snowed trees where it should not be.

***

A local specific phenomenon is known as "armed rednecks", populating the rural regions of some highly developed countries, who have a shotgun or even a rifle under every bed, to protect their homes from the red hordes of commies.
These tough guys are not very numerous, they are just several (3..4 ?) per cent of the total population, but they are brave, well-trained, always ready to fight.
They won't just give away what belongs to them, and to them belongs almost entire food production in such huge and powerful country.
They always know the proper price on their food, and they won't let just come and take it.

At the same time the city economics of such country is "post-industrial", based on "industry of service".
(That's how they say "Our industrial production has no real need in these excessive people, but we will be giving them a posibility to get a piece of bread and enterntain themselves, as we have enough resources for that. And we'll even will be saying sweet words on their creative futureness on TV, to ensure them that it's okay.")

Once the economics suddenly had gotten out of the excessive resource, and the brave farmers (i.e. a thin layer of food monopolists) declare new honest prices on their food (because it's a free trade world, the farmer should be paid for his products), the feeble, intimidated, white-handed, but unemployed barbers, bartenders, baristas, will quickly form the BarBarBarian foraging teams and go to the brave farmers to discuss the crop prices and what the farmers can accept instead of money (like in Russia, 1916..1919), enthusiastically supported by not rich people with non-English default Windows language, also having lost their poor job.

The rednecks think they are arming against the commies, but in fact they are doing it instead the yappies and hippies, just yet don't realise this.

After a while, the Brave New World will arise above the resurrected Earth, with happy rural communes (like in Russia, 1930s), who welcome the new friends from the galaxy far, far away.

***

So, I believe the superbullets would be required very rarely, as the social interaction, the community relations, and words of friendship said in time, are more effective than violence and fear!

P.S.
Wait... But maybe that's the plan?...

Maybe the Musk's Martian Race...  No, it just can't be the truth...

Edited January 7 by kerbiloid

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

and

That was some magestic cynicism and snark! 

I fear for those poor unfortunate aliens. 

BTW - if they've got so much antimatter that they can load it into bullets for their grunts - why not just blackhole the sun? 

[magnemoe]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:43 PM, Kerbart said:

It's a bit difficult to discuss since we're in physics La-La-Land here. The “shrapnel” has minimal penetration power as it has absolutely no mass. Unless we pretend that it can. Once we're in the realm of “supervillains with unstoppable weapons” the outcome is quite predictable, when we're calling the weapons unstoppable.

On the other hand, modern army units are modern army units. By itself, maybe not. But in a modern combat environment it's very unlikely they wouldn't call in air support, artillery, mortars, and so on. “But imagine it's only them and they only carry guns.” The reason units don’t carry everything but the kitchen sink around with them is because they do have support. That allows them to afford walking around relatively lightly armed and be mobile.

In the end the outcome is defined by the constraints you come up with. Make the super weapons really super weapons, and handcuff the good guys, and the bad guys will win.

This, the heavy weapons are the important part. Related if you are in an high orbit and has near future anti missile defenses on your interstellar ships we can not hurt you but you can hit us. 
And obviously you could just buy earth. We offer radical life extension and good fusion power plants for an peaceful integration into our empire sent from a kilometer long warships in orbit. 
We will obviously support the ones joining us with the benefits and fire support against our enemies. 
 

[SOXBLOX]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:50 PM, Spacescifi said:

<snip>

But what if a modern army unit was up against guys with scifi BOMB slug throwers?

Scenario: The bad guys have both pistols and AK-47's with special bomb bullets. Look like normal bullets but when they impact they explode with the force of a modern grenade and even have shrapnel, albeit much less than a real grenade (since you can only fill so many metal beads inside the hollow nose of a bullet.

<snip>

Congratulations, you have described the Raufoss round, choice ammunition of American snipers working with .50-cal rifles.

Is it destructive? Well, they don't call them "anti-materiel" for nothing!

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, magnemoe said:

We offer radical life extension and good fusion power plants for an peaceful integration into our empire sent from a kilometer long warships in orbit. 

Ha-ha! We have natural gas, and so what? 

P.S.
A little extension:

BarBarBarBarians  = unemployed former Barbers, Bartenders, Baristas, and Barcode clickers.

4 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

ell, they don't call them "anti-materiel" for nothing!

"Oops!.. Missed.. Doesn't matter."

[KSK]

Pick up rock.

Sneak up behind enemy combatant. As per Mr R Heinlein, this may be facilitated if the enemy mudfoot is loaded down with gear and too busy reading a vernier to notice you.

Bash them over the head with rock. 

Steal their weapons and ammunition to use against them.

Stretch goal - reverse engineer magic boom bullets for own use.

 

Edit. More seriously, how do modern militaries deal with grenades, mortars, tanks, and all the other sundry nastiness that lie between ‘small arms fire’ and ‘tactical nuke’? Reading up on that might be a good place to start.

Edit the 2nd.  If you want a science fiction take on this, what you’re describing sounds like a standard Bolter from Warhammer 40K, albeit one that doesn’t require the strength of a genetically enhanced supersoldier to use. 

Unsure if you’ll find any way of countering Bolters other than ‘throw more bodies at the problem’ or ‘deploy space magic’, but it might be worth a look.

 

Edited January 8 by KSK

[magnemoe]

13 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

Congratulations, you have described the Raufoss round, choice ammunition of American snipers working with .50-cal rifles.

Is it destructive? Well, they don't call them "anti-materiel" for nothing!

Yes that is another option, I described an miniature grenade shot from something most like an shotgun. the .50 is shot from the M2 machine gun or an heavy sniper rifle. 
You have an round who is lethal for everything outside of tanks and heavy IFV. Now the .50 sniper rifles are not something you run around and shoot with unless you are very strong. 
If you are an stronger species or has power armor you can use it at least as an battle rifle, and no power armor will not help you against this round. 
 

[Mikki]

I think a species capable of interstellar travel at c or faster (... ) would use very, very small projectiles i.e. tungsten micro slugs accelerated to 99% the speed of light.

Clubs may be able to destroy this weapon but throwing the clubs at the weapon, which is sure kept far out of reach in high orbit, makes this difficult.

Alien AI identifies in seconds billions of targets at the surface including incoming clubs and takes all targets down in a few minutes, depending on the feed rate of said autogun. Hitscan weapons are a divine gift so to say.

After saturating one side of the planet, the other half will get the same treatment.

When the aliens are unsure of their successfull raid, they leave the autogun active for some years scanning for any human activity.

If aliens show no interest at all in earth they one-shot the planet from a convenient distance like moon or further with a few grams of micro slugs, but the speed ramped up to 99.99% c.

The solar system has now a new dust cloud and a rogue moon. 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I've got it - we get Tim the Magician to ask the aliens their favorite color! 

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I've got it - we get Tim the Magician to ask the aliens their favorite color! 

You would be surprised, whose protegee he is.

[SunlitZelkova]

8 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I've got it - we get Tim the Magician to ask the aliens their favorite color! 

Reminds me of a Wizards of Waverly Place (Disney Channel TV show from the late 2000s/early 2010s) episode, where the wizards are tested by their headmaster with a fake government agent asking for help against an incoming alien invasion.

There was no alien invasion and the guy who revealed his secret got chewed out later on.

[farmerben]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footfall