A Message from Nate Simpson

[boriz]

1 minute ago, cocoscacao said:

That's why I'm more of a torch person in the rabble. Zero maintenance. 

Which is better? There's only one way to find out...

Spoiler

 

[boriz]

58 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

tired of the nonstop fighting

Not entirely sure why you would characterize this discussion as "fighting". People can disagree and not be fighting you know.

[boriz]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

My problem isn't the lying, it's the expecting it to ever stop.

Yep. Jaded.

[PDCWolf]

5 hours ago, boriz said:

PDCwolf. You're upset, you want someone to blame

I want a whole list! And there's definitely some names I already know I'm making sure I never buy anything from again. Yet I'm not one of those "rich man bad" types that's only lashing it out against T2. A failure this nasty takes a lot of vertical effort, probably more than actually getting the game to the finish line. There was a ton of people doing their job wrong for it to end like this, not just "muh beancounters" and so.

However it's also important, as I said before, to understand that I'm only posting about this on this forum, where this specific game and situation is discussed. I don't take this garbage to my real life, as much as people want to extrapolate me as some madtivist shooting hate mail at people and trying to boycott or whatever other boogeyman they need to conjure. I'm an adult, I have a job that has me through multiple positions, I have obligations, friends, and so. So no, I'm not upset, in here and talking about this is where I -sound- upset.

1 hour ago, NexusHelium said:

Not trying to bait just tired of the nonstop fighting between two side of the same coin 

As for something on topic the only thing left I really have to share here is something I said on discord about what Nate could do to truly apologize since it was pretty clear some weren’t satisfied with his response.

  Hide contents

“I think all Nate really needs to do for us is prove that he’s actually taking to the promises made to us. 

The community (understandably so as well) I imagine doesn’t trust Nate much right now due to his past, but if he was able to *show* us his skills that he’s learning and put them to use then I think that would be a suitable enough *true* apology for almost everyone in the community (except for like the deep haters who won’t be happy until he’s gone from their world forever, but we can all agree that no person deserves that kind of malice inflicted on them). 

Not saying that this video wasn’t an amazing step and deeply meaningful to me and a bunch of the community (and I imagine himself) but I think that it would be nice if he would check in every so often with maybe a new blender model or something he’s working on. Simply show us he’s truly learning from his mistakes”

 

To me this sounds more like you want him to humble/humiliate himself in front of you and the discord, which is much harsher than anything I'd want from him. We already are at a point (and he says so himself) where his name is associated with "failure to deliver", he dig that hole on his own even if in the video he doesn't mention that part (but by god I do wish he realizes almost for his own good), all I need is that someone finally dares to put their big boy pants on and says "I did this wrong, this helped/caused KSP2 to fail." But no, it's a long line to be the victim in the spotlight, which honestly is in tune with modern average discourse but that doesn't make it any less disgusting. Assuming responsibility should come first, that's how you play a proper adult, then we can talk about which part they didn't play.

Looking away from his responsibility or patting his back when he's down for taking away something you wanted does not make people doing that better or worse than anyone else, which seemed to be the point a lot of people tried to argue when caught telling others what to think and what to feel.

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

The day before I lost my first "real" job (at a grocery store so don't shed too many tears for me) my manager looked me square in the eye and told me no one was going anywhere. The next week the store was empty and the entire workforce was either finding another job or re-applying for the other grocery chain that bought the building.

Maybe I'm jaded. I know he either lied or was lied to. People lie all the time. My problem isn't the lying, it's the expecting it to ever stop.

I got fired almost like that. I was in a half-paid internship so my boss was only paying half my wage and the taxpayer was footing the other half through a government program. This program was set up so business owners could train employees and maybe turn them into permanent employees after a certain period of time. Leaving aside the fact my new boss told me to "look at youtube for training", after some months I broke something thanks to a yet inexperienced hand. He told me those things happen all the time very reassuringly, yet the next day I was told by him to not come back the next Monday.

I of course made a report on what I did wrong and presented it at the government office that handles the internships. They investigated, paid my remainder, set me up for a different business (where I ended up working 3 years!) and this guy's business got banned from the internship program going forward. Of course he didn't go under or anything of the sort, but that's one lie paid with one consequence, and that's good because lying will stop if there's consequences. And no, it did not make me unhirable, it did not soil my reputation to fight him, he did not send men in black with guns to my home,  or whatever else, there was no consequence for me for exposing him like that.

 However, If there's people that assume lies are a normal part of life and look away from it shrugging, yeah, it won't stop any time soon. Of course, you can't cure all lying, but if we all bend over and tell lies because "expecting it to ever stop is wrong", that's not helping the problem either. Again, not all of us should take the easy way out and be the victim.

 

 

[jost]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

I got fired almost like that. I was in a half-paid internship so my boss was only paying half my wage and the taxpayer was footing the other half through a government program. This program was set up so business owners could train employees and maybe turn them into permanent employees after a certain period of time. Leaving aside the fact my new boss told me to "look at youtube for training", after some months I broke something thanks to a yet inexperienced hand. He told me those things happen all the time very reassuringly, yet the next day I was told by him to not come back the next Monday.

I of course made a report on what I did wrong and presented it at the government office that handles the internships. They investigated, paid my remainder, set me up for a different business (where I ended up working 3 years!) and this guy's business got banned from the internship program going forward. Of course he didn't go under or anything of the sort, but that's one lie paid with one consequence, and that's good because lying will stop if there's consequences.

And no, it did not make me unhirable, it did not soil my reputation to fight him, he did not send men in black with guns to my home,  or whatever else, there was no consequence for me for exposing him like that.

First I appreciate that you went through to tell the goverment your boss abused the program. More people should do it in such cases,  so hats off!

Second I don't think yours and Nates cases are the same.  You didn't broke the contract with the goverment,  your boss did. While Nate would break his NDA if he get too much in detail.  In your case you were practically doing the goverment and other companys a favour since one bad actor couldn't abuse the program any more.

But I don't  believe that most companies would like to hire somebody with a known track record for failing projects and generate even more bad PR afterwards by talking too much about it.

 

 

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

 However, If there's people that assume lies are a normal part of life and look away from it shrugging, yeah, it won't stop any time soon.

But they are! You and I can despite it as much as we want but that's the way it is. Hate the game, not the Player. 

Edited December 19, 2024 by jost

[Bej Kerman]

8 hours ago, NexusHelium said:

As for something on topic the only thing left I really have to share here is something I said on discord about what Nate could do to truly apologize since it was pretty clear some weren’t satisfied with his response.

  Hide contents

“I think all Nate really needs to do for us is prove that he’s actually taking to the promises made to us. 

The community (understandably so as well) I imagine doesn’t trust Nate much right now due to his past, but if he was able to *show* us his skills that he’s learning and put them to use then I think that would be a suitable enough *true* apology for almost everyone in the community (except for like the deep haters who won’t be happy until he’s gone from their world forever, but we can all agree that no person deserves that kind of malice inflicted on them). 

Not saying that this video wasn’t an amazing step and deeply meaningful to me and a bunch of the community (and I imagine himself) but I think that it would be nice if he would check in every so often with maybe a new blender model or something he’s working on. Simply show us he’s truly learning from his mistakes”

I think he should be able to enjoy his hobbies in private regardless of whatever it is he did wrong, rather than opening an aspect of his life up to a rabid fanbase just to "prove" something to them. He really ought to find new friends to share his hobbies with (and he probably has done already) instead of doing borderline parasocial **** for the sake of a fanbase that's always going to have displeased and angry people in it. Sharing your creations with a hefty group of people that 50% hates your guts sounds like a really effective way to send your mental health into a flatspin - but hey, at least you'd get to see a blender model, then forget about it 5 seconds later.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

@PDCWolf

I couldn't agree more.

Accountability is something I have a hard time grasping. Working quality control for years allowed me to see first hand how many companies address issues of accountability.

Accountability arises from ownership of responsibility. Now one would assume people wish to learn from their mistakes (companies too). But this is not really the case. 

Find a mistake and correct it. Simple enough. As I moved into Quality Assurance and became more familiar with internal structures I realize that in my own experience, this idea of ownership is mostly illusory at higher levels.

I do not know how to fully articulate this other than, they look for someone or something to blame.

I do not know how many times I have discovered costly mistakes or inadequate process controls and I always get a ton of debate before we arrive at corrective measures.

Those debate always centers around why these bad ideas were implemented or worse a willful ignorance that ignores mountains of recommendations / best practice from industry leaders.

It so refreshing when someone can identify a mistake that was made, own it.. learn and move on. I (FEEL) there is a lack of accountability from Nate.

This could absolutely be my own bias peaking through. From dealing with people that routinely cost their companies large sums of money and point to everyone else responsible for "failing" to meet the vision.

When you direct a team you accept ownership. I have yet to (FEEL) like any ownership is taking place. This may be to the disappointment and bias enforced by circumstances, but I get so tired of the mentality 

"OH, if I had more money it would work" or "I didn't have experienced team members" or whatever it is. I just want to hear some discussions on what went to pot and where. 

It truly feels that ownership and accountability begin to grow scarce the more important you are. 

There was an awesome book by a navy seal about "Extreme Ownership" that was amazing.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership

May get a copy and try to get it to Nate.

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Bej Kerman]

12 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

May get a copy and try to get it to Nate.

I hope this is sarcasm... Can't really tell nowadays. If you're actually trying to find any sort of contact with Nate just to send him a book you think proves something to him, [snip]

Edited December 19, 2024 by Vanamonde

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

There was an awesome book by a navy seal about "Extreme Ownership" that was amazing.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership

May get a copy and try to get it to Nate.

Don't bother. Nate needs to buy it himself for the book make any effect on him; the best you can do is to manage to get this book into his attention and hope that eventually he will remember it later, when it would be the right time.

Changes needs to come from inside.

This made me remember another one of my "presepadas" . Long story made short, I once jumped out of the frying pan into the fire - resigned from a job that wasn't paying me well to another one that will, but ended up getting screwed due unrelated reasons (I think I had already talking about some years ago). In the end, knowing that getting fired would be the best outcome at that point (due severances), I ended up thinking it would be a good idea  to lend two books to my Manager:

• How to work for an idiot, John Hoover
• The servant, James C Hunter.

Let me tell you, I got my severances.

Some years later, this dude tried to reach me for recruiting. Apparently he finally decided to read the books - but at that time, I had switched industries already. But the dude climbed the ladder, it would not be a bad move if I would still working on that field.

Anyway. There are some books that you need to buy yourself, otherwise they will probably not work as intended.

(And I just ordered this one for me, by the way. Thanks for the tip).

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Lisias
My grammar's QoS is inversely proportion by the caffeine's LOD on my blood. I need more coffee.

[PDCWolf]

4 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

but I get so tired of the mentality  "OH, if I had more money it would work" or "I didn't have experienced team members" or whatever it is. I just want to hear some discussions on what went to pot and where.  It truly feels that ownership and accountability begin to grow scarce the more important you are.

This, make it a nice frame and hang it. You can also add "if they had more time". 7 years is so far above the poor copycat job they were doing it's shameful, specially once it released and we saw it was still at least 3 to 5 years away (so a total of nine to twelve!).

https://www.juegostudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Graph-1.png

To extend this list a bit, and budget included:

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild – 5 years, ~$100M
• Cyberpunk 2077 – 9 years, $316M
• Elden Ring – 4 years, ~$200M
• Assassin’s Creed Valhalla – 2.5 years, ~$120M
• Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2022) – 3 years, $250M
• Red Dead Redemption 2 – 8 years, $540M
• Halo Infinite – 6 years, ~$500M
• Final Fantasy XV – 10 years, ~$250M

4 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership

May get a copy and try to get it to Nate.

Considering Furio's firing... Nate probably believes he's an orchestra director rather than a leader, he has the killer idea, the wits, and puts his face to it, but any problem with it is clearly some cello player's fault, and the lights guy for getting the illumination to dim, and the theater for having bad acoustics, and clearly nobody has the drive he does, and nobody is putting as much into this as him. "Listen to me for success" rather than "Grab a shovel and lets build the road to success."

[boriz]

17 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

Accountability arises from ownership of responsibility.

Responsibility can  only be reasonably determined once all the important facts are known, and currently, they are not. Let's not put the cart before the horse.

You realise that whoever is deciding what information to release and when, and how it's spun, is creating a narrative?

Spoiler

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by boriz

[Fizzlebop Smith]

41 minutes ago, boriz said:

Yes, accountability is required. And it will remain so until responsibility can be determined, which can only be reasonably determined once all the important facts are known, and currently, they are not. Let's not put the cart before the horse.

You realise that whoever is deciding what information to release and when, and how it's spun, is creating a narrative?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You are wrong. Ownership is a character trait regarding the responsibilities one already has.

 

If you wait until after everything has fallen apart to determine which respective individuals should have which specific responsibility, you have fundamentally planned to fail.

 

What information? There is none. Therefor the narrative is one of incompetence and mismanagement. Considering the end state.. pretty sure that would still be the case when all the cards are down.

Only change will be the antagonist

Edited December 19, 2024 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Vanamonde]

So like we said, please stop trying to tell others how they should feel. Some comments removed. 

[Lisias]

6 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

7 hours ago, boriz said:

You realise that whoever is deciding what information to release and when, and how it's spun, is creating a narrative?

What information? There is none. Therefor the narrative is one of incompetence and mismanagement. Considering the end state.. pretty sure that would still be the case when all the cards are down.

IMHO, it's exactly their point!

A good narrative hides crucial information to be released gradually, over the plot, to maximize the desired goal: to promote a character, to demote another or, or whatever.

Agatha Christie is famous for hiding information from the plots, somethings using them as Deus Ex Machina in the end to tie the book.

Denying information, believe it or not, is also a source of information because it allows you to infer why such information would be important to hide,

[Fizzlebop Smith]

36 minutes ago, Lisias said:

IMHO, it's exactly their point!

A good narrative hides crucial information to be released gradually, over the plot, to maximize the desired goal: to promote a character, to demote another or, or whatever.

Agatha Christie is famous for hiding information from the plots, somethings using them as Deus Ex Machina in the end to tie the book.

Denying information, believe it or not, is also a source of information because it allows you to infer why such information would be important to hide,

Yes information is controlled. Shadow Censorship is a huge topic where I live as am effective means of narrative control. But there are degrees of ability to obfuscate.

For instance. If a house is falling down, merely burning the inspection reports & forcing those who slapped paint to remain silent.. only does so much. You can still see rotten boards when the thing falls down.

I think mismanagement is to blame. The information will determine whether it was willful.

I mean.. it really could be incompetence, but I don't think it is.

 

Edit

I just want to know if anyone came up along the way and offered suggestions or warned against certain things.. Did Nate listen to good advice or was no one ever put there with good advice. Did furious get fired because he conflicted with vision?

Did they realize certain decisions were bad and attempt to obfuscate to ride out developement amd *hope* they could solve things.

Did they try to hire consultants of proper caliber but got shut down?

I know pipe dreams.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Fizzlebop Smith

[boriz]

14 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

You are wrong. Ownership is a character trait regarding the responsibilities one already has.

Perhaps my grammar was at fault, not my point. I've edited my post for clarity. Better?

Edited December 20, 2024 by boriz

[cocoscacao]

On 12/19/2024 at 3:02 AM, jost said:

But they are! You and I can despite it as much as we want but that's the way it is. Hate the game, not the Player. 

Those who lie 'cause they're incompetent to provide any value in any other way... and swim perfectly fine due to system which probably arose through them... Yes, I am going to hate the players. Otherwise, the future isn't very bright. 

[Vanamonde]

A digression from this thread has been moved. 

 

[never_do]

After watching the video I think this is not really a message to the community but to the people he worked with.

This is mostly speculation but maybe he was the guy who always questioned others why progress is slow because he read somewhere on the internet or ChatGPT that it is easy and since he already used blender once and also did program 100 lines of code 10 years ago he totally knows how to do everything.

This is probably also what he was doing the last 6 months. Trying to do a project by himself. Only to find out that it is way more difficult than he imagined. This is probably what he is sorry about and why he is talking now. Because he finally realized that there is a huge difference between "having a vision" and "actually implementing it" and he failed at understanding this basic knowledge.

[cocoscacao]

@never_do

ChatGpt came out 2 years ago. Ksp2 was in development for 7 (?) years. Thus, I doubt it. 

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

@never_do

ChatGpt came out 2 years ago. Ksp2 was in development for 7 (?) years. Thus, I doubt it. 

But was in development way before that, exactly when you need programmers the most - this thing wasn't coded in 6 months.

[PDCWolf]

16 hours ago, never_do said:

After watching the video I think this is not really a message to the community but to the people he worked with.

This is mostly speculation but maybe he was the guy who always questioned others why progress is slow because he read somewhere on the internet or ChatGPT that it is easy and since he already used blender once and also did program 100 lines of code 10 years ago he totally knows how to do everything.

This is probably also what he was doing the last 6 months. Trying to do a project by himself. Only to find out that it is way more difficult than he imagined. This is probably what he is sorry about and why he is talking now. Because he finally realized that there is a huge difference between "having a vision" and "actually implementing it" and he failed at understanding this basic knowledge.

Development started in 2017.  Also Nate was working with Uber Entertainment before that. He's been involved (and been the public mouthpiece) in previous... very sus EA projects, a few of which reached the finish line, through not without controversy, plus one or two dubious kickstarters.

Just so people remember, he's not associated with "failure to deliver" just from KSP2. He was involved in:

• Monday Night Combat (EA lasted a year with very little updates before they announced the next one)
• Super Monday Night Combat (Ea lasted two years with very little updates, cancelled and support completely dropped)
• Planetary Annihilation (Got to release, but all of the promised features that did not make it were promised for the immediately announced upcoming title)
• Planetary Annihilation: Titans (Technically released well, but was looked at wrong by some for including everything that was promised for the original)
• Human Resources (Didn't make it out of Kickstarter as people perceived SMNC and PA:T were wake up calls)

Now... he went with a simple pitch and doubled with another pitch for an EA game that overran its dates and had a year of updates before being dropped... Hmm...

Edited December 30, 2024 by PDCWolf

[never_do]

18 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

@never_do

ChatGpt came out 2 years ago. Ksp2 was in development for 7 (?) years. Thus, I doubt it. 

Honestly. I don't understand why people in this forum always try to say something for the sake of saying something. Nate himself said that especially the last year after EA was the time when he felt most of the stress. And the thread/discussion is about what Nate said in his response.

KSP2 came out of EA at the start of 2023. ChatGPT came out at the end out 2022. It definately did exist during the time when they felt the most stress. And everyone tried it during the time and I know what it can do and how often it simply talks about something although it has no idea at all. I also did have to explain to some project dudes why the brainfarts it is talking about is repurposed bovine waste because some people actually think "it is AI and thus it is magically better in everything than humans".

During the first 6 years they were probably twiddling their thumbs. Employing external devs who did certain things on contract and then the job was done. There are posts from some of these devs where you can see that they didn't even try to make a game by themselves. I think they started to feel stress after several years of delay T2 wanted to at least see something.  Thus the rush to EA. And the stress after the EA release.

Edited December 31, 2024 by never_do