Dear Developers.... (Feedback | Please Read)

[Brabbit1987]

Well I am pretty sure, stupid_chris and chaos_forge just made home runs in this topic. Just entirely destroyed any future arguments, though I have a feeling people will still argue lol XD.

[Rockhem]

I'm going to have to agree with Rizzupl, I'm a long time player and it seems that after 0.18 the development for KSP has dropped off a cliff. Maybe the team just isn't really enthusiastic about career mode and thus it's hindering their ability to work since they're not putting their all into it like they did with planets? The attempt to make quick, monthly releases that would release selected finished features has failed since all we have is the same bi-monthly to almost tri-monthly development time but with fewer results than before the new method was started.

I'm a bit concerned about development and how things are going honestly.

I do like the milestone system though, that's a good thing to keep us informed.

We haven't even got the first update in the step towards career mode, .19 and .20 were infrastructure and they just gave us a candy bar (wheels, seats, and flags) to help buffer rage about no content.

.21 has quite a bit of content.

Maybe hitchiker Iva (wanted desperately)

New SAS

Crew management

New KSC

Better planet details

Procedural craters on the Mun

Some new parts

Bugfixes of course

[EleSigma]

Have you heard about the 80/20 problem? HarvesteR even made a post about it.

I know that blog post would pop up in this topic eventually.

[chaos_forge]

the problem is there's almost no new content in this update. xD

Let's see:

Reworked KSC buildings (and new buildings)

Reworked Space center menu (now shares the same instance as flights)

New parts

Remodeled parts

FIXED ASAS (and thank god for that)

Reworked planets

Crew management

Lots of backend changes we can't see

Place to put descriptions for crafts

That doesn't seem like "almost no new content" to me.

EDIT: ninja'd

Edited July 24, 2013 by chaos_forge

[Lanfranc]

Lots of backend changes we can't see

Including I believe support for progress tracking, which will obviously be rather important for the future career mode.

[Rizzupl]

Let's see:

Reworked KSC building

Reworked Space center menu (now shares the same instance as flights)

New parts

Remodeled parts

FIXED ASAS (and thank god for that)

Reworked planets

Crew management

Lots of backend changes we can't see

That doesn't seem like "almost no new content" to me.

EDIT: ninja'd

and the only sandbox-worthy things are copypasted KSPX parts and stock crew manifest mod. Solid half a year of development.

[Ralathon]

the problem is there's almost no new content I likein this update. xD

Fixed that for you.

There is plenty of content in each patch, the problem is that it's code optimization and backbones for other features.

It's like a mechanic fixing your car to increase your milage. On the outside your car will look the same, no new flashy body or wheel caps. But it ensures your car will continue to work when you do add those things.

I have the feeling you don't understand much about programming...

[chaos_forge]

and the only sandbox-worthy things are copypasted KSPX parts and stock crew manifest mod. Solid half a year of development.

Content you don't like != not content

EDIT: yeah, what Ralathon said

[Torham234]

the problem is there's almost no new content in this update. xD

And there is going to be even less content next time, as the focus shifts from content to finishing/polish of the content. Squad is eventually planing to finish the game...

[Rockhem]

Wow, there is plenty of content in this update, i am super excited for .21 because it will change the way I play KSP. i am pretty satisfied with the list of new content that is coming.

[Louhikarme]

Poorly made poll. The update will come when it comes. no sooner or later. And if it breaks saves, tough. It's work in progress.

[GusTurbo]

Crew management and new SAS behavior are both a huge deal and will affect how I play the game. I would be excited if the update was just those two things.

Also, I don't care much about breaking saves.

[Rockhem]

Crew management and new SAS behavior are both a huge deal and will affect how I play the game. I would be excited if the update was just those two things.

This, so much this. everybody over looks the ability to also replace command pods in .20, that was a MASSIVE game changer.

[Phawks]

The reason for the increased amount of secrecy is the larger community, which means there are more people complaining and starting flame wars like the one in this thread. People keep taking offhand comments the developers make and blowing them out of proportion, or complaining about features that were not originally going to be implemented in the game not being in the next update. (I'm looking at you, resources) I mean honestly, you should be glad that they're being included at all. And the devs decided to implement them because of the community.

People's capacity for overreaction amazes me sometimes.

Create hierarchies within the community. Limit newer members to specific forums and heavily moderate them. After a few months, grant them access to more "sophisticated" forums. Funnel the crap into one in particular. Most of all, be comfortable in the fact that you said you were working on a feature, then explained why it was pushed back if that becomes the case. Most of the problems in this community stem from 1) uneducated members (i.e., those having not researched their question), and 2) the lack of any cohesive knowledge base to refer those of category one to.

Resources were planned for 0.19 before the announcement for smaller and faster updates instead. I have yet to see the "faster" part of that...

Okay, three things:

Firstly, we're not "unofficial shareholders" in any sense, although we are stakeholders.

Secondly, how is weekly status updates on what each developer is doing the same as "obscene amounts of censorship and secrecy"? What more do you want, updates in 10-minute intervals? Or live feeds from the development offices?

And thirdly, I very much doubt that Squad is earning "millions of dollars" from KSP, and even if they did, as long as development is continuing as planned, they can do whatever the hell they want with their money.

That's a matter partially of semantics, but I'll give it to you. Alpha funding is a gray area when it comes to investment.

The weekly updates are vague summaries at best. Granted, that's better than it was immediately before, but I'm one of the types that enjoys looking at the guts. I want public access to the bugtracker. Maybe limit it to the length of time you've been in the community. Only six-month and older members have access to the bugtracker or nightly/milestone builds. Create an established update cycle and stick with it. Look at Android ROM development or all the good indie developers out there. Granted, part of that is open source. I understand the "not getting anyone's hopes up" part of censoring the bugtracker screenshot yesterday. I discussed it with Ted on IRC. Still, I would greatly appreciate the philosophy of "you have access to all the information, if something makes it or doesn't make it, you know why and you can't really complain."

Well, we currently have 76,965 members registered. I'm going to assume 60,000 have purchased the game. Of that, I'll assume half bought it at $23. That's $690,000. The other half, I'll assume bought it at an average of $15 earlier in development. That's an additional $450,000. Now, I'll venture to say Steam sales not registered to the forums account for an additional 100,000 sales, at $23 each minus a 30% cut to Valve. That's an additional $1,610,000. At a bare minimum, Squad has made $1.5 million so far. By the speculative math I just did, they've made $2.75 million. That's about half a million more than the Planetary Annihilation Kickstarter. Granted, that was a team of professionals with considerable experience, but that's a lot of money. And yes, they're free to do whatever the hell they want with their money, but, as a symbol of respect and common human effing decency, they listen to their backers.

Wow there is so much entitlement in this thread I don't know where to start.

1. Squad is not required to give you any updates or any information.

2. More money does not equal faster development.

3. Don't underestimate infrastructure, would you rather have a broken resource system and career mode done quick or a working one that takes a couple months?

4. If they wanted to they could take space port and the forums down too.

They're not required, but see my above mention of common human decency.

It's not equal, but it's highly correlated. More money provides faster/more numerous systems, as well as financial motivation for the team and the expansion of the team.

I'm not underestimating infrastructure, but how much of that infrastructure have they actually let us see? I would love for the codemonkeys to be able to see what's going on instead of just being told about it.

They could and they regularly do for maintenance. However, it's supplementary to the product. Do you think they'd have $1.5 million or more if they had a reputation for completely f***ing the playerbase? No. Piracy would be much, much higher. Even now, last I checked, torrents of .20 had 600 current seeds and half as many leeches. Studios known for less-than-stellar customer appreciation have massive piracy rates. Right now, independents (games/movies/books/etc.) benefit from piracy for the exposure. That's another debate for another thread, though.

[Rizzupl]

This, so much this. everybody over looks the ability to also replace command pods in .20, that was a MASSIVE game changer.

I'm not saying i don't LIKE the new content. It's just not enough for 5 months of development. Alright I won't win anything by continuing this pointless fight. This can only result in me loosing my temper and looking like a total retard. Time will show how ksp will turn out, I'm just spreading awareness. Back to f5'ing the site for 0.21 then.

[blenderman]

I am actually looking forward to the new release even with my saves broken. When a break-saves release comes out it is a fresh start. do over. I dont have a problem with it... looking forward to it.

[chaos_forge]

Create hierarchies within the community. Limit newer members to specific forums and heavily moderate them. After a few months, grant them access to more "sophisticated" forums. Funnel the crap into one in particular. Most of all, be comfortable in the fact that you said you were working on a feature, then explained why it was pushed back if that becomes the case. Most of the problems in this community stem from 1) uneducated members (i.e., those having not researched their question), and 2) the lack of any cohesive knowledge base to refer those of category one to.

Resources were planned for 0.19 before the announcement for smaller and faster updates instead. I have yet to see the "faster" part of that...

That system is both broken and elitist. There's no way the moderators could pull off that level of social engineering without having significantly larger resources (and nevermind the unsettling Orwellian implications that such a system would have). Furthermore, I for example have been paying KSP since v0.8 and lurking on the forums for at least a year, but I only made my first post a month ago. Under your system I would be unfairly punished.

And they do explain why they're not working on a feature anymore. I'm sorry, but community lashback is an unavoidable consequence of increased player base. The problems in the community stem mostly from 1) overreaction.

And as for the faster updates, see the quote from HarvesteR earlier in this thread.

Edited July 24, 2013 by chaos_forge

[Skyrunner27]

If we wait we will get full implementation of the planet textures and not have to wait until next save breaking update.

Also remember Squad could stop development and there is nothing you can do. But they continue development for your sake. And some complain that the recent updates aren't good. If you want resources fine will still be in .18.4. If you don't like updates don't update. Rememeber docking was held off for many updates and so were planets.

[Sapphire]

I can totally wait for the next update. Bugfixes, better performance.. and re-doing some of the planets. Hopefully Eve get remade heavily, because it's just a flat purple wasteland now. Let's see some peaks and cliffs!

As for 0.21 itself, I can totally wait longer. I'm still doing heavy R&D, coming up with new craft to use in the next space program.

[glacierre]

If we wait we will get full implementation of the planet textures and not have to wait until next save breaking update.

Also remember Squad could stop development and there is nothing you can do. But they continue development for your sake. And some complain that the recent updates aren't good. If you want resources fine will still be in .18.4. If you don't like updates don't update. Rememeber docking was held off for many updates and so were planets.

They continue development because they want to sell more copies, which in turn will keep adding money to their accounts to buy things like.. food.

[The Jedi Master]

You are not a programmer (at least, I don't think so). Therefore, you probably don't know how hard this would be to implement.

[PwnedDuck]

Yes. I would happily wait a little longer if it means redoing of all planets and only one save-break. I don't care, that the game is in alpha, I do not think it is entitled to prefer the convenience of save-breaking changes to be grouped together.

I simply do not care how necessary it is (and I fully understand that it must and will happen), but save-breaking will never be anything but a massive annoyance to me because it takes away hours of effort. It is that simple. If I paint a beautiful painting in black and white, and the colour mauve is invented, If I want to implement mauve, I'd rather paint over it, than trample it, at every available turn on the path to all th colours being implemented.

[Guest Aaack]

After reading four pages of this thread...

I'm a new user, for me it started in the current version and it's all wonder and happiness. I never lived a faster release cycle, and as a Linux long time user I'm used to live in "alpha world" where everything explodes on a new release. It's normal to me. (yes, it's an exaggeration, but still valid)

But, as new user I wasn't even aware of a faster (and past) cycle, which has sense. The more complex the game becomes, the more difficult is to overhaul whole parts of it. <-- I'm not a programmer so I may talking no-sense here, however sounds logical.

Squad needs to live as company, it needs to raise money and it needs to spend it too, if I were a coder I would like money to like eat and have fun too!, otherwise I would code to myself without any guarantee at all giving a rat's crap about my user base. And this is also very common in the Linux world where no one takes things for granted.

I guess all this mumbling is to say, calm down. This is normal. Enjoy it as part of the process too.

[spikeyhat09]

Are we absolutely certain that adding craters to the rest of the system would break saves again? or is it just the initial incorporation of the layout that breaks saves, and from then on you can add the craters without anything breaking? i dont have the slightest clue how this works (not a programmer ), but just thought id ask

[Goatgas]

This game is like good BBQ..( its what I do). It will be done when its done. And whining "I want it now!! "doesn't help anyone. Constructive criticism is always a good thing. Destructive criticism serves no purpose but to alienate and cause unwanted negative discourse. nuff said.