Should the MechJeb Maneuver Planner eventually become stock?

[CaptainCrunch]

So I think most people who have used MechJeb can all agree that the information windows it displays regarding orbit info, delta-v etc. are indispensable and will eventually make it into the stock game in one form or another.

For me though the real goldmine in MechJeb is the Maneuver Planner (and to some extent the Rendezvous Planner) and is the part whose absence I immediately notice the most. It is so much more efficient and intuitive at plotting out an exact target course and destination than trying to pull around maneuver nodes. Thoughts? Should a stock version of this (excluding the autopilot function of course) be added at some later date?

EDIT: Since there is some confusion on this I am not referring to the Maneuver Editor but the Maneuver Planner. The Editor is nice and we definitely need more precise control with the maneuver nodes but more precise functions for node adjustment are almost guaranteed. However I really like having the option within the Maneuver Planner window to create a node that would for example circularize my 100km orbit with the condition that the node is created at the apoapsis etc.

For career mode this would ideally be something that should be buried far down in the tech tree so initially you have to calculate manual burns. All it would do is create a target on the navball, you would still have to follow that target and fly by hand.

To make it even less easy-mode you could even add in the condition that it would only work for maneuvers you have already done. Such as it only being possible to create a circularize at 100km apoapsis after you have created this node yourself manually.

Edited August 11, 2013 by CaptainCrunch

[Ben88]

So I think most people who have used MechJeb can all agree that the information windows it displays regarding orbit info, delta-v etc. are indispensable and will eventually make it into the stock game in one form or another.

For me though the real goldmine in MechJeb is the Maneuver Planner (and to some extent the Rendezvous Planner) and is the part whose absence I immediately notice the most. It is so much more efficient and intuitive at plotting out an exact target course and destination than trying to pull around maneuver nodes. Thoughts? Should a stock version of this be added at some later date?

Give them an inch and they will take a mile.

I think it's fine as it is, if people want mech jeb they can download it.

[OtherDalfite]

I really don't think that would be in the best, here's why.

1: The current maneuver node system is very well crafted in the manner you can see what effect changing the node has on your orbit. For new players, this is invaluable at learning orbital mechanics/transfers and beyond.

2: If we have the system simply plot a course, then the user isn't really learning anything about what forces go into this plot, as they might see it as a graphed line, and not something that they themselves have a good grasp on.

tl;dr I've not much experience with mechjeb, but I don't think something so rigid should go into the base game.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm just not a big fan of how the maneuver nodes work and so far the the MechJeb UI seems to solve this in a much more understandable way. Pulling around little colored dots can be extremely tedious especially if you're OCD about trying to hit something exactly on target. Maybe just adding a way to enter in a numerical value would be helpful.

P.S. Oh and PLEASE don't let this turn into an Autopilot vs. Not Autopilot bashing thread. I'm only talking about planning manual maneuvers.

Edited August 10, 2013 by CaptainCrunch

[Tank Buddy]

I agree, Mech Jeb does too much for the player and detracts from their skill and the game.

[Valley]

The little colored dots don't mean anything to me. I find MechJeb's actions make more sense to me and I am learning from it more. Even started to dock myself BECAUSE I figured out how to turn my knowledge of how space travel works into real actions from watching MechJeb.

[Brofessional]

All of the info panels need to be part of the vanilla game. As it is you pretty much have to install either MechJeb or Kerbal Engineer to perform accurate maneuvers.

The maneuver node handles need some work so it's easier to fine-tune the trajectories, but I don't think the entire functionality of the maneuver planner should be added.

[Lazro]

I think the OP meant "Manever Editor."

[annallia]

Give them an inch and they will take a mile.

I think it's fine as it is, if people want mech jeb they can download it.

By that logic nothing that was once a mod should have ever been added to the game...

That said I agree with you to a point.

Things such as the TWR/Delta V stats in the VAB/SPH should definitely be part of stock. As well as things like the landing information (not the auto land, just the distance from target your current course has and altitude above the terrain rather than sea level).

As to the maneuver planner... I can see allowing the portion that will plot the next node and wouldn't argue against it being added though I don't see it being needed. If the rest of the planner (IE auto pilot functions) were added to the stock game then I might take issue.

[Wallace]

Thing I find annoying about manoeuvre nodes is you can't see what's going on properly as you do it, like want to change ascending node to zero, well, you'll have to tug the lil triangle then hover over the marker tag for the ascending node to see the value, then move and tug the triangle a little more then hover then tug, I wish all the labels on thing appeared when you edit the node so you could see the distances for intercepts, and the periapsis and apoapsis and whatever else you need to see as you are adjusting the node.

[antiquark]

Yes, MechJeb lets you bypass the parts of the game that simply aren't fun. Such as, warping to the next node, or keeping aimed while burning at the node.

[luchelibre]

Definitely agree that the maneuver system should remain as is. Squad picked a great spot on the difficulty curve with it. It will work both with brute force-type players (keep moving things till it goes where you want it) and efficient players (those who research the mechanics beforehand.) Finally, it (mostly) remains out of the way for veteran players that don't need it as much.

The one play-type it doesn't work with? Lazy players.

In my opinion, the current node system is one of Squad's best creations for the game.

[luchelibre]

Thing I find annoying about manoeuvre nodes is you can't see what's going on properly as you do it, like want to change ascending node to zero, well, you'll have to tug the lil triangle then hover over the marker tag for the ascending node to see the value, then move and tug the triangle a little more then hover then tug, I wish all the labels on thing appeared when you edit the node so you could see the distances for intercepts, and the periapsis and apoapsis and whatever else you need to see as you are adjusting the node.

Given that actual AP and PE display would overlap projected AP and PE display for many maneuvers, especially smaller ones, Squad's current system of clicking those that you want to remain displayed is a better choice. Inclination doesn't follow this, unfortunately. It might have to do with the fact that efficient plane changes require a continuous heading change throughout the burn and so don't lend themselves well to node planning. Once you learn how it works, though, you can just look at the orbit line and the markers positions to make your change.

....or keeping aimed while burning at the node.

Press 'T' when you're aimed at the blue marker. Does wonders.

Edited August 10, 2013 by luchelibre

[Diche Bach]

The stock maneuver nodes are okay for very starters. But when you get to the point of wanting to do precision stuff, they are very lacking.

First of all, the are imprecise simply because of the size of the graphics it seems. Secondly, they are difficult and tedious to adjust to the exact values one wants. The fact that you must drag the directional circle you want, then let go and consult the effect it had on the apsides, then go back and adjust, then let go and look . . . repeat ad in finitum . . . this is excellent for newcomers to rocketry because the delicacy of the thing affords a good basis for understanding the basics of orbital mechanics. But once you got the basics, it becomes little more than tedium. Moreover, when you are trying to set a very precise orbit (geosynchronous or rendezvous) this oversensitivity in the controls, combined with the imprecision combines to make achieving precise orbits a veritable nightmare.

Lastly, these matters are made even worse by the fact that, for whatever reasons, once one has a nearly circular orbit (and particularly when one gets close to 2868.75 km orbit of Kerbin) the apsides, the prograde the retrograde, and the maneuver vector markers all have a tendency to wobble and bounce on the navball. Infuriatingly, the apsides will even flop from one side of the orbit to the other, particularly if you use time warp as you approach your maneuver node.

It is an amazing game, absolutely hands down the best simulator for realistic space flight of which I am aware.

But there is plenty of room for improvement in the maneuver node system, and let us hope that the Devs get a chance to play with MJ and see what it has to show them.

On the other hand, MJ I find to be very precise, but not easy to use. I'm sure I'll eventually figure it all out, but I will certainly be forced to consult manuals and tutorials and probably to ask questions I'm sure. This contrasts pretty dramatically with how easy it is to get going with the stock system. I do not think that simply "sticking MJ" or for that matter any given component from MJ into the stock game would be advisable, either from a user experience standpoint or from a look-and-feel standpoint. MJ is an amazing mod and I personally like its design, though I have yet to puzzle it through. However, it is a very different look and feel from the vanilla game, and it is also extremely noob-unfriendly.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Diche Bach

[regex]

Maneuver nodes are fine as-is. MechJeb's manuever planner functionality should remain optional because using and understanding maneuver nodes is a crucial part of stock play.

[CaptainCrunch]

I do like how Squad made the maneuver nodes more organic than just typing numbers into a text box and I'm pretty sure they will tweak it so it can display orbit changes in real-time without the annoying mouse-over as well as displaying target inclination changes etc. However it still feels like an extremely manual way to plot burns.

One interesting way to implement a maneuver planner in career mode would be to bury it way down in the tech tree as an advanced navigation computer. So for example maybe for the first half of the tech tree a player would have to figure out how to plot an inclination of 90 degrees by dragging the nodes around. Then when the "next-gen" navigation computer is researched they can input a request (i.e. input a value and click a button) for it to calculate the direction and time of a burn resulting in a 90 degree inclination.

Edited August 11, 2013 by CaptainCrunch

[boxman]

If something like that is ever added to the game, then i hope it is at least switched off by default. I personally think manouvering nodes work great and if you burn at right time it is pretty damn accurate as well.

A little information that mechjeb and similar mods provides could be nice though, so that I dont have to switch to map view to see how high AP/PE is and how far you are from AP.

[CaptainCrunch]

Maybe another way to do this would be if Squad implemented the ability to save a flight path. For example say I launch a space station to a 100km circular orbit and the game then gives me the option at the end of the flight to save when I burned and in what direction. I could come back with a second rocket and load that queue of maneuver nodes and burn at the appropriate times. I suppose the only flaw with this is once you start bringing in different craft sizes with different Delta-v, but maybe that could be adjusted.

This way you still have to figure out how to reach a point in space but you don't have to completely throw away your nav data and start from scratch every time. Either way I love this game and I'm confident Squad will keep moving in the awesome direction they have been.

[justadude]

I feel that the information displays as well as Warp help should be stock from the get go.

The autopilot should be unlocked for both Sandbox and Career mode after the player has performed the tasks by hand (to simulate the development of the technology).

I would require different milestones for different modules and frame them as training in the career game or the tutorials. Establishing an circular orbit - Ascent guidance. Orbiting Moon - Maneuver Planner. Rendezvous and docking - you get the idea. This way players learn the basics, but those who prefer the creative gameplay aspects over the twitch elements are given tools to help them fly.

Autopilot should always remain optional. People who do not want to use it, should have the option not too.

[CaptainCrunch]

I feel that the information displays as well as Warp help should be stock from the get go.

The autopilot should be unlocked for both Sandbox and Career mode after the player has performed the tasks by hand (to simulate the development of the technology).

I would require different milestones for different modules and frame them as training in the career game or the tutorials. Establishing an circular orbit - Ascent guidance. Orbiting Moon - Maneuver Planner. Rendezvous and docking - you get the idea. This way players learn the basics, but those who prefer the creative gameplay aspects over the twitch elements are given tools to help them fly.

Autopilot should always remain optional. People who do not want to use it, should have the option not too.

Pretty sure squad has already said autopilot will never be stock which I am perfectly okay with.

[Sapphire]

Pretty sure squad has already said autopilot will never be stock which I am perfectly okay with.

Not entirely true: I think they also said that Kerblas would eventually be able to fly missions themselves, depending on how good you train them.

[Exothermos]

I like some of the Data and telemetry that Mechjeb provides, especially regarding planetary transfers and orbital details. I feel that the stock game is sorely lacking in that department. All the active autopilot stuff Mechjeb does should remain as Mod-only territory, however.

[Camelotking524]

What I believe the OP (and a lot of others) want is a more precise control over maneuver nodes. While Squad chose a more organic way as someone put it earlier in the thread, some want something a little more....numbery.

[luchelibre]

What I believe the OP (and a lot of others) want is a more precise control over maneuver nodes. While Squad chose a more organic way as someone put it earlier in the thread, some want something a little more....numbery.

I suggest then that the OP change the title from 'planner' to 'editor' and make a note of it in the first post. Hopefully should clear things up.

[Tripzter]

The only thing i wish would be added in the game is from mechjeb is more info while in the construction buildings. You shouldnt have to go into orbit just to be able to see your ships weight.