(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[SSSPutnik]

Yes, you are absolutely right. But there was no need for that until you arrived. I'm not sure how to do that because downloading all the possible mods and checking all the parts looks too big for me to do. Maybe when planning a mission it should be asked. Or something like that.

I suggest you simply have a seperate section for stock and modded parts.

A blanket ban on things like debug cheats, cheat engines or other blatant cheats.

Although I like using modded parts, I have zero interest in removing the challenge.

My LLL lander used engines easy to fit, but it still took a fair effort to design something that could land and return from Tylo. They fit nice but are heavy.

Stretchy tanks are the same, the weight to fuel ratio scales with stock tanks. (I ran calcs and all but two stock tanks have the exact same fuel to mass ratio). I will probably not use them (stretchy). But someone else might. Personally I don't see the problem IF the parts are scaled performance wise with stock.

That said, doing the mission stock is still special and should be given bonus kudos.

PS sorry to complicate

Edited February 5, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[SSSPutnik]

He he yeah banning mining on everything but Tylo, meaning you have to land a Kethane refinery there could be a good challenge. The extra weight, especially if you have to leave it there.

And if it has to be capable of refueling something in orbit...

[SSSPutnik]

Mr Rocket:

How much refueling does your mission need, be a shame to stop, I see you decided to continue. Cool!

[Mr.Rocket]

I don't know how much refueling i need. I think i'll get the lander off Vall into Jool orbit, and have the mothership move there too to dock with it, and get away from dreaded Tylo. Then continue from there, too see how much refueling i need

Theres alot of snow today so i'll be getting alot of playing time

[SSSPutnik]

I don't know how much refueling i need. I think i'll get the lander off Vall into Jool orbit, and have the mothership move there too to dock with it, and get away from dreaded Tylo. Then continue from there, too see how much refueling i need

Theres alot of snow today so i'll be getting alot of playing time

Where are you? States?

Have you landed on Tylo yet? It makes sense to do Tylo first so you aren't luggimg all that fuel weight around the other moons.

[Mr.Rocket]

Where are you? States?

Have you landed on Tylo yet?

Yes, New England, very snowy, and i have landed on Tylo already so i should be good

[sullivap]

Hello,

I am submitting my latest mission for the minimalist Jool-5 Challenge.

Vital Stats:

Single launch

Basic Lander Can, just Jeb this time.

Mass on pad: 129T

Mass in LKO: 66T

Mods: MechJeb, KerbalAlarmClock, TACFuelBalancer, CrewManifest (irrelevant for this mission)

Mission Details:

Air breathing first stage

Conventional second stage

2 LV-Ns for interplanetary transfer

Air breathing Laythe booster

Once in Jool SOI The engine nacelles were detached and renamed Logistics-A (L-A) and Logistics-B (L-.

The main tank was dropped on a intercept path with Jool and L-A docked with the aft end of the main craft.

L-B maneuvered for a Jool aerocapture with a final apoapsis outside of Tylo's greedy reach, where it circularized.

The main craft maneuvered for a direct Laythe encounter and aerocapture.

Once in Laythe orbit the lander, with Laythe booster stage, landed on Laythe.

During the Laythe ascent the Laythe booster was left to fall back to Laythe.

The lander docked with the main craft and proceeded to Tylo.

From an highly elliptic ( pe of 40, ap near the edge of SOI) Tylo the lander and Tylo module undocked and circularized at 40km.

The lander burned off the first stage of the tylo decent package (becoming suborbital) and then landed.

During Tylo ascent the lander used what was left of the decent package as a booster.

When the lander joined the main craft it was refueled and the lander surplus fuel tank was left in Tylo orbit while the main craft (L-A and Lander) went to Vall.

Vall orbit and landing was achieved, the lander refueled from L-A and what was left in L-A was used to transfer to Pol.

In Pol orbit the lander took all remaining fuel from L-A, landed on Pol and then departed Pol leaving L-A in Pol orbit.

The lander then rendezvoused/docked with L-B and proceeded to Bop. At Bop our old friend was paid a visit and then

The lander returned to L-B. L-B then took the lander to high Jool orbit to await the Kerbin transfer window.

L-B and the lander returned to Kerbin and performed an aerocapture. Once in LKO the lander undocked and returned to KSC.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

http://imgur.com/a/GRrns#0

-Pete

[Ziv]

sullivap: congratulations, you have accomplished the JOOL-5 challenge on the Level 1 sub-challenge and you lead the board now with 129 tons!

Impressive solution with the two Logistics module, especially as they acted as fuel stations. Nice job with the pinpoint landings at the Kraken and back to KSC too.

Btw I'm working on my low-mass level1 entry too, I already abandoned two versions at different stages of the mission as I've got new ideas. Good dV planning with refuel stations is one of the keys, and your solution is pretty good on this! Thank you for your entry!

[sullivap]

Ziv,

Thank you for the kind words. This was the 5th attempt, the other 4 ran out of fuel somewhere between Vall and Pol. I should post a progression of the refinements. The separate logistics vessels came around version 3 or 4. I asked myself "why am I dragging all this fuel in and out of orbit so many times?"

I am working on a Jeb level entry that I would like to share, but if I dove right back in without a break my fiance would be less than thrilled.

-Pete

[Mr.Rocket]

Well, with a snowday today, i managed to get alot of the refueling mission done, and Bob safely to the mothership, i need that lander for Bop and Pol

Pictures:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

And heres a nice shot of Kerbol, Jool, the Taurus, Vall, Laythe, and Tylo

(p.s. don't worry, i'll put this in one huge entry when i'm done, and i'll probably do a story like write-up in fanworks too )

Edit: congrats for over 500 replies!

Edited February 5, 2014 by Mr.Rocket

[SSSPutnik]

Hello,

I am submitting my latest mission for the minimalist Jool-5 Challenge.

Vital Stats:

Single launch

Basic Lander Can, just Jeb this time.

Mass on pad: 129T

Mass in LKO: 66T

Mods: MechJeb, KerbalAlarmClock, TACFuelBalancer, CrewManifest (irrelevant for this mission)

Holy smoke ! 129t ! Amazing Pete! Well done.

[Jasonden]

Are the torodial Aerospikes better than Mainsails?

I like them better, but you know, I haven't done the comparison. But inspired by your question, I did an apples-to-apples comparison of launches of a 2-orange-tank stack as the payload with 6 asparagus tanks surrounding it. I then put different engines on each, aiming for getting similar TWR for the overall stacks. HEre's the result:

[table=width: 500]

[tr]

[td]Aerospikes (cluster of 12) [/td]

[td]543t[/td]

[td]140km orbit[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Mainsails[/td]

[td]555.7t[/td]

[td]144km orbit[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Rockomax 48-7S (cluster of 50)[/td]

[td]480.6t[/td]

[td]150km orbit[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

The Aerospikes and Mainsails come out pretty indistinguishable in the end -- the 'spikes take less fuel, but the engines themselves are heavier. Tweaks to TWR via aerospike engine quantity or other small variations could probably be done to each, leaving this result within systematic noise.

But look at the 48-7S's! They've got both better TWR *and* better Isp than the Mainsails. The result is stunning -- the 48-7S's lead to a total mass better than 10% under that of the Mainsails and Aerospikes.

Of course with a cluster of 50 48-7S each with a corresponding cubic octagonal, that immediately puts you at a 700 part count for engines alone. So I leave it to you to decide whether that 10% is worth turning your CPU into a molten puddle of slag. But I might try the challenge again using this kind of optimization

And your launch vehicle is not the same which arrived to Jool: the parachutes are on the engines, and later it's a dockable module (please check if you have uploaded the right pictures).

Absolutely right -- I did several launches before I was happy, moving the parachutes around, and staging in starting up the nukes on ascent. The VAB picture is from the latest iteration, but I didn't have many launch pics there so some of those are from previous versions.

[SSSPutnik]

The 48-7S is an amazing engine. I know it had thrust increased only 1-2 versions ago, maybe a little too powerful?

Most of my lander designs use it.

[zeppelinmage]

New England

*hi-5*

My intention tonight was to land on Laythe. Decoupled my lander, had Bill in the Command Seat, and sent him on his way. Re-entered atmo and popped chutes. As soon as it hit 500m and the chutes opened, Bill fell out of the lander, plummeting to his death.

I think I need to perform a partially powered landing to reduce that G-load on poor Bill. But, of course, I'm out of time tonight. Next time.

[Alchemist]

I want to try with this craft (guess why I named it that):

Have yet to design the orbital part...

BTW, jets aren't necessary - it can get to LKO without them.

Does it count for Jeb's level if I take total 5 kerbals and for each landing the crew (3 kerbals) is rotated?

The flight plan is Laythe - Tylo - Vall - Bop&Pol (and probably Eeloo or/and Dres)

[SSSPutnik]

Alchemist, what are all the nosecone bits for?

Do you need all that RCS fuel?

Otherwise it looks intriguing. I asked Ziv a similar issue question about crew, waiting on response.

[Alchemist]

Alchemist, what are all the nosecone bits for?

Do you need all that RCS fuel?

The nosecones are atmo-scanners for Laythe and these oval tanks are goo containers. Full set of science. And don't forget that Laythe landing gives triple set of data. That's why all the extra science sets on the sides.

[Ziv]

I want to try with this craft (guess why I named it that):

http://s006.radikal.ru/i214/1402/4e/30ab928a1b5e.png

Have yet to design the orbital part...

BTW, jets aren't necessary - it can get to LKO without them.

Does it count for Jeb's level if I take total 5 kerbals and for each landing the crew (3 kerbals) is rotated?

The flight plan is Laythe - Tylo - Vall - Bop&Pol (and probably Eeloo or/and Dres)

OMG that beast!!! I'm really curious what it is capable and what can you achieve with that!

Hm, I suggest you to assign the different engine types to different action groups (0-9, and so you can change quickly between them). And use your nuclear engines as main drives to and from Jool, and this way the orbital ship may be fuel tanks with living section for at least two other Kerbals. You will need a lot of orange tanks to push it there, for refuels between moons and coming back anyway (refueling missions are acceptable from Kerbin too, but it looks better when refueling is avoided).

Or you can have a return module (5 kerbals, fuel+engine) and leave most of the mass behind before return...

Sure, you can land with 3 Kerbals but you have to assign one Kerbal to one moon who will pilot the craft there. SSSPutnik asked if you can land with all the 5 Kerbals at every moon - yes, this way they will rotate themselves in the pilot seat.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

hm, ok, maybe the nuclear engines would be VERY slow to move several orange tanks... forget that suggestion.

[Alchemist]

The Stage 2 configuration (after dropping jets and chutes) of the lander is most likely capable of single-staging both Laythe and Tylo (it can pull SSTO on Kerbin).

As for orbital part - the design will be a bit similar to what I once tried to use for Jool tour with similar size lander (unfortunately that got eaten by the Kraken). Its name, Antares, says much about what it is...

The key trick of the lander is its Stage 3 configuration - after 2 alpha-decays landings Thorium turns into Radon lander. At some point it will really be left with only 2 NERVAs of the lander.

BTW, I consider 1 NERVA per 2 orange tanks the minimal TWR for comfortable interplanetary flights (and it takes 4-5 burns to escape Kerbin)

Edited February 6, 2014 by Alchemist

[Ziv]

Be careful, Kerbin orbit takes ~4500 m/s, and Tylo landing and back from 10-40 km orbit takes about 5400-7300 m/s (depending on your TWR and skills - MechJeb doesn't help you much there).

Did you ever checked its deltaV with MechJeb, KER or something similar?

Edited February 6, 2014 by Ziv

[SSSPutnik]

OK, Ziv, as promised here are all the pics from my Jool 5 - Mission 3. Sorry took so long but I was playing this at two places and it took a while to get time to merge and compile all the screenshots.

This is a level 1 equivalent entry, although the Osperus II had a ton of crew on board, only two crew flew landers.

Mission completed, with the following notes:

1) Did NOT land back at Kerbin, the ship returned to Kerbin orbit safely however with all crew.

2) Mothership and landers used modified parts from LLL, KW Rocketry and Kethane.

3) Kethane was NOT used, only scanned for.

4) No refueling required.

Ship comprised, mothership, two landers and two tugs.

After aerobraking at Jool and achieving orbit, I split the ships up.

Osperus II stayed in parking orbit whilst Lander 1+Tug 1 went to Tylo

Lander 2 and Tug 2 went to Laythe

Then did Tylo landing, and Laythe landing.

Lander 2 met with Tug 2 and they went to Vall.

Osperus II went to Vall.

Vall landing.

Met with Osperus 2 and head to Pol.

Tylo lander and tug went to Pol. Big party at Pol. Osperus II sucked the tugs and a lander dry, we dumped a lander and then fueled up the remaining lander.

(Seemed sad to dump em, they were perfectly serviceable but just dead weight without fuel.)

Lander went to Bop, landed, then back to Pol.

Landed Pol.

Docked with Osperus II and headed back home, (with the lander attached).

So, in summary - Kerbin->Jool->Tylo/Laythe->Vall->Bop->Poll->Home.

Here are the images. (Hope they are OK, there was quite a bit of quicksaving/restoring as well as working on two computers and having to merge them). (Same savegame file copied back and forth).

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A pretty bad video of the ship. (My first game video ever).

Edited February 7, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[SSSPutnik]

I think I need to perform a partially powered landing to reduce that G-load on poor Bill. But, of course, I'm out of time tonight. Next time.

Pop the chutes at higher altitude. Less force exerted then.

[zeppelinmage]

Pop the chutes at higher altitude. Less force exerted then.

Ah, yeah, could do.

But I just completed it anyway. Found a few minutes before heading to bed, so I decided to give it another go. Burned about 200 m/s to slow down before the chutes opened, and Bill held on this time. Laythe successfully landed and re-orbited.

I do hope a water landing is valid (yes, Bill touched the surface), because my trajectory refused to let me land on any of those tiny islands.

[Kasuha]

Pop the chutes at higher altitude. Less force exerted then.

The air is thinner but you're also going faster through it. AFAIK the kick is about the same regardless how high you open them.

Even opening them one by one is IMO worse than opening them at once - because if you open just one, then the whole weight of the ship is going to try to tear the chute off its attach point. If you open all of them, it will distribute over all chutes.

If you're landing anything bigger than just the capsule, you should mount at least one drogue. That's the trick.