[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Starwaster]

Liters reported is actual volume of the tank.

Utilization over 1 is how you get gaseous compression for things like xenon gas so those tanks can support a total volume greater than the tank volume

[OminousPenguin]

Thanks.

The stack tank has radius and height 0.3125m so total volume of 95.87L. Three quarters of that is 71.9L so 70L looks right.

The radial tank has radius 0.15625m and height 0.625m so a total volume of 48L. So a volume of 40L looks about right too.

So just scaling the stock values of 700 and 400 down an order of magnitude seems to be correct

[NathanKell]

The RCS tanks also had some issues too. The new values are:

Radial RCS: 76L

Long Radial RCS: 240L

Mini stackmount RCS: 80L

Xenon radial tank: 33L

Xenon stack tank: 70L

[Oksbad]

Is sliding utilization up to 100 essentially an exploit/easy mode?

[NathanKell]

It depends. See here for an old post on the subject (still valid). For a balloon tank, utilization should be at 100% for obvious reasons (there's no wasted space at all, because the outer wall of the tank is the outer wall of the part).

You don't get any mass savings doing so btw; you just reduce drag a tiny, tiny bit.

[Kitspace]

But what about the interstage structures and stuff? I assume the part has the flat ends of the complete stage not the dome shaped tank ends? As far as I know the balloon tanks have high pressurisation levels to maintain the structural integrity so they basically need the dome shaped ends even more than the normal tanks?

[komodo]

Hey, typo/bug to report. I don't know if its worth making a pull request for a single character, though. In the TantaresLV.cfg file you've got a duplicate entry at the top of the file.

@PART[ALV_LFO_A]:NEEDS[!RealismOverhaul]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 28000
		type = Default
	}
}
@PART[ALV_LFO_A]:NEEDS[!RealismOverhaul]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 10000
		type = Default
	}
}

Where the second block ought to be ALV_LFO_B. This leads to some entertaining fillups needless to say

And more as a comment, I will look to see what overlap there is, but Tantares/LVs are shipping at least some of their own real fuels configs, but I don't know how much is engine configs and how much is tanks. Like I said, i'll have to peer into them when i've got some more time to see.

Thanks for the fun mod!

[NathanKell]

Kitspace: No, all tanks are going to be rounded, it'd be nuts to run a pressure vessel at 1.8atm and have sharp corners. Also, no, balloon tanks don't have higher pressurization than regular tanks, they just can't ever be unpressurized. The ones with the high pressurization are the tanks in type ServiceModule or Fuselage, i.e. for pressure-fed engines.

komodo: Thanks! Fixed in git. Do please check and get back to us if we're duplicating Tantares configs.

[BioHaZarD.PT]

I read about tank types here in the forum but I don't see anything related to that in game (after installing the mod of course). Is there supposed to be some way to change the tank type in game? For any tank?

[Starwaster]

I read about tank types here in the forum but I don't see anything related to that in game (after installing the mod of course). Is there supposed to be some way to change the tank type in game? For any tank?

If you want to change a tank's type in the game then you want Procedural Parts. The right click menu has an option for changing a tank's type.

[SpacedInvader]

So I've been trying to use this recently in a stock sized system career game and I've run into the problem of the launchpad restrictions for ship size / weight completely blocking all attempts to launch. I'm not really interested in losing the career aspect of the game to use real fuels, so is there a way to adjust these restrictions, either through a setting, or through a modded file, so that I can launch from early pads without always being over the limits?

EDIT: Nevermind, after running into vehicle control issues (I'm guessing due to size / CoM / Kerbin gravity) I've simply decided to switch over to using non-realistic values for masses through realsettings.cfg.

Edited April 16, 2015 by SpacedInvader

[Carl Sagan The S Stallion]

I have two gameplay questions:

1.) When is LHx + LOx fuel EVER useful when compared to JP-1? I find that the density of LHx, as low as it is, reduces DeltaV so much that it's useless.

2.) What exactly would be an in-game affect of using toxic fuels? I know in real life, toxic fuels would make fuel tanks hard to service and would cost more to manufacture, but is there any impact the fuel has on gameplay, or does the danger have to be imagined by the player?

[Starwaster]

I have two gameplay questions:

1.) When is LHx + LOx fuel EVER useful when compared to JP-1? I find that the density of LHx, as low as it is, reduces DeltaV so much that it's useless.

2.) What exactly would be an in-game affect of using toxic fuels? I know in real life, toxic fuels would make fuel tanks hard to service and would cost more to manufacture, but is there any impact the fuel has on gameplay, or does the danger have to be imagined by the player?

1. LH+LOX are useful for reducing upper stage mass. Reduced upper mass means more DV for the first stage. Look to the second and third stage of the Saturn V rocket.
   
2. There are no in-game effects of toxic fuels. And I don't think the Kerbals give a darn about toxic fuels They certainly won't stop to put on a 'good pair of running shoes' just because you loaded up with chlorine trifluoride.
   

Edited April 20, 2015 by Starwaster

[Autochton]

Hydrolox is highly useful anywhere you have a higher premium on mass than on volume, and need as high an Isp as you can get. Upper stages are a prime example, as Starwaster points out. If you can cool down your tankage, boil-off also becomes a much smaller problem, meaning with precautions it is storable.

My personal favorite oh-god-run-away fuel mixture would be pentaborane+FOOF...

[Thorg]

First off i would like to congratulate NathanKell for an awesome mod ! And secondly i humbly ask if theres a way to add support or at least point me to a way of making OPT Space Plane parts work with real fuels?

I did try going into the CFGs and adding the module to the tanks but that's time consuming and when CKAN updates anything the CFGs end up reverted back to their original content thus leaving me back at square one. I also thought about trying to go the ModuleManager patch way but so far it isnt working ... Any help would really be appreciated.

I appologise if this thread is not for this type of request

[darqen27]

Hydrolox is highly useful anywhere you have a higher premium on mass than on volume, and need as high an Isp as you can get. Upper stages are a prime example, as Starwaster points out. If you can cool down your tankage, boil-off also becomes a much smaller problem, meaning with precautions it is storable.

My personal favorite oh-god-run-away fuel mixture would be pentaborane+FOOF...

Lol Pentaborane is so toxic that 1 part per million would kill you(Thats smaller then you can see), it acts like a nerve agent on you

The exhaust is also highly toxic. Funny the game talks about the russians possibly using this for an engine, but the US was the largest holder of this toxic chemical until 2004 when a way to destroy it was found.

THOSE BIG EVIL RUSSIANS, haha, j/k

IN RUSSIA, ROCKET FLY YOU!

Edited April 22, 2015 by darqen27

[SpaceHungryMan]

First off i would like to congratulate NathanKell for an awesome mod ! And secondly i humbly ask if theres a way to add support or at least point me to a way of making OPT Space Plane parts work with real fuels?

I did try going into the CFGs and adding the module to the tanks but that's time consuming and when CKAN updates anything the CFGs end up reverted back to their original content thus leaving me back at square one. I also thought about trying to go the ModuleManager patch way but so far it isnt working ... Any help would really be appreciated.

I appologise if this thread is not for this type of request

You can use mine if you want. Here:

//For K.Yeon's OPT Space Plane Parts

@PART[mk2j_adaptor]:FOR[RealFuels] //J to Mk2 Adaptor 4m
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 8000
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[jk_7m_adaptor]:FOR[RealFuels] //J-K Adaptor
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 50000
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[j_4m_tanks]:FOR[RealFuels] //J-FuelTank 4m
{
	!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 13200
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[OPTdropTank]:FOR[RealFuels] //OPT Droptank
{
	!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 1500
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[ij_4m_adaptor_variant]:FOR[RealFuels] //I-J Connector
{
	!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 8800
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[ij_adaptor]:FOR[RealFuels] //I-J Connector
{
	!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 8800
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[k_6m_tanks]:FOR[RealFuels] //K-FuelTank 6m
{
	!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 20625
		type = Fuselage
	}
}


@PART[k_cockpit_adaptor]:FOR[RealFuels] //K - Space Shuttle Cockpit Adaptor
{
	!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 13750
		type = Fuselage
	}
}

[Thorg]

SpaceHungryMan, thanks a lot for this code ! I wil try it imediately !

By the way is there a similar thing for the OPT engines? I noticed that on the previous version of real fuels the OPT engines got altered but they reverted back to normal after this latest update.

[SpaceHungryMan]

SpaceHungryMan, thanks a lot for this code ! I wil try it imediately !

By the way is there a similar thing for the OPT engines? I noticed that on the previous version of real fuels the OPT engines got altered but they reverted back to normal after this latest update.

Check again. It should be there. Download directly from the repo instead of downloading the official release.

[Ralathon]

Lol Pentaborane is so toxic that 1 part per million would kill you(Thats smaller then you can see), it acts like a nerve agent on you

The exhaust is also highly toxic. Funny the game talks about the russians possibly using this for an engine, but the US was the largest holder of this toxic chemical until 2004 when a way to destroy it was found.

THOSE BIG EVIL RUSSIANS, haha, j/k

IN RUSSIA, ROCKET FLY YOU!

FOOF is even worse.

[Autochton]

Lol Pentaborane is so toxic that 1 part per million would kill you(Thats smaller then you can see), it acts like a nerve agent on you

The exhaust is also highly toxic.!

FOOF is even worse.

Which is why mixing them is a Thing That Should Never Be Done, yes. AFAIK, nobody has been quite off their rocker enough to try that out. Or maybe they have and the destruction was so total, all evidence of the event was lost.

[regex]

2.) What exactly would be an in-game affect of using toxic fuels? I know in real life, toxic fuels would make fuel tanks hard to service and would cost more to manufacture, but is there any impact the fuel has on gameplay, or does the danger have to be imagined by the player?

As Starwaster says, there is none. The additional toxics and odd fuels are included so the user can run fantastic scenarios if desired, kind of like when using the Orion engine mod for launch.

The exhaust is also highly toxic. Funny the game talks about the russians possibly using this for an engine, but the US was the largest holder of this toxic chemical until 2004 when a way to destroy it was found.

Are you talking about RO including the RD-270M? That's the entire reason we added all those fuels in the first place, IIRC. ferram4 wanted an RD-270 and we got to chatting and soon enough Real Fuels had a "Cold War Nightmare" version. Really has nothing to do with demonizing Russians over Americans, but rather that I finally added the engine that sparked the fuel expansion.

Oh, actually, I think it was Cavea-B... ferram4 had mentioned adding that around the same time which is why we gathered up all the fuel data points we could find and expanded Real Fuels instead of just adding those two. Cavea-B RCS blocks are coming soon in RO as well.

Also, Real Fuels in 1.0 should see some ?five? different solid fuels added through integration with CRP, although I'll be leaving it to someone else to figure out performance data.

[von Ziegendorf]

I've got a question about nuclear engines. In one of the first posts it's written that they can have different configurations, but I have only engines that run on liquid hydrogen. Where I can found those other engines that run on ammonia or methane?

[regex]

I've got a question about nuclear engines. In one of the first posts it's written that they can have different configurations, but I have only engines that run on liquid hydrogen. Where I can found those other engines that run on ammonia or methane?

Depends on the engine config package you have. I recall earlier RO packages having that but I haven't used nukes in a very, very long time.

[NathanKell]

von Ziegendorf: that's up to the engine config pack maker. RO has LANTR mode for Porkjet's engines IIRC, and perhaps the NP2 NERVA (I don't recall specifically).