[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Dermeister]

Sounds like something i would do Usually my upper stages are weak because the thinking is that in space TW won't matter it will just take longer to burn. BTW is there a way to get rid of this maximum ignition crap?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Dermeister

[CatastrophicFailure]

Yeah, must be some extra config. I noticed I get no plume/sound with the lv909 too. And looking over what I've unlocked in this career, ONLY the coxswain seems to have the full realfuels treatment. None of the other engines need ullage/ignitions. How do I delete the MM cache?

[lurkoholic]

Sounds like something i would do Usually my upper stages are weak because the thinking is that in space TW won't matter it will just take longer to burn. BTW is there a way to get rid of this maximum ignition crap?

It's a lot easier for stock size Kerbin when you only need another 1000 m/s to reach orbital velocity

Near the bottom of realsettings.cfg you can change the

"simulateUllage = true

limitedIgnitions = true"

lines to false to remove ullage requirements or limited ignitions.

Yeah, must be some extra config. I noticed I get no plume/sound with the lv909 too. And looking over what I've unlocked in this career, ONLY the coxswain seems to have the full realfuels treatment. None of the other engines need ullage/ignitions. How do I delete the MM cache?

Module manager adds four additional files to your gamedata folder. I THINK it's OK to delete all of those (not including the module manager.dll) and they will be regenerated the next time you run KSP, but the MM physics and tech tree files probably wouldn't affect your updated engine configs loading.

[Dermeister]

It's a lot easier for stock size Kerbin when you only need another 1000 m/s to reach orbital velocity

Near the bottom of realsettings.cfg you can change the

"simulateUllage = true

limitedIgnitions = true"

lines to false to remove ullage requirements or limited ignitions.

Module manager adds four additional files to your gamedata folder. I THINK it's OK to delete all of those (not including the module manager.dll) and they will be regenerated the next time you run KSP, but the MM physics and tech tree files probably wouldn't affect your updated engine configs loading.

NIce also how do you know the Volume of fuel for each fuels in a tank? I notice often the ratio is not 50 50.

[Gaarst]

NIce also how do you know the Volume of fuel for each fuels in a tank? I notice often the ratio is not 50 50.

Ratio is not 50/50 because it is the way the fuels work. Each bipropellant combination has a specific proportion in the mix: it is optimal for both the fuels and engine and almost never 50/50 (the closest you'll get is for Aerozine50 and NTO with ~50% and ~49%. For example hydrolox is approximately 75% liquid hydrogen and 25% liquid oxygen, in terms of volume.

Even in stock KSP, LF and Oxidizer are in a 9/11 ration (or 11/9, I don't remember).

So unless you learn each ratio, you can look at the ratio with maximum dV (with KER or MJ) or take a look on ratios of real fuels (I'm not sure it is the same as in this mod though).

[lurkoholic]

NIce also how do you know the Volume of fuel for each fuels in a tank? I notice often the ratio is not 50 50.

Once you configure your engines or RCS for the fuel you want, there should be an auto fill button to fill the tank with the correct ratio.

[Dermeister]

Once you configure your engines or RCS for the fuel you want, there should be an auto fill button to fill the tank with the correct ratio.

I like this Autofill you speak of sir !

[westamastaflash]

I'm using stockalike RF engine pack, and I found that the poodle is draining my fuel in the station even though crossfeed between the tug's docking port and the station is off. Is this an engine-specific setting or a RealFuels feature?

[Starwaster]

Module manager adds four additional files to your gamedata folder. I THINK it's OK to delete all of those (not including the module manager.dll) and they will be regenerated the next time you run KSP, but the MM physics and tech tree files probably wouldn't affect your updated engine configs loading.

It is ok to remove those four, and in some cases, it's a good idea to. I've noticed in some cases that the cached files are used when it would be desirable for them to be getting rebuilt. (I think that happens if what :NEEDS are being met changes but no actual configs changed. Not sure)

[eirinym]

Is it possible to have different igniter resources within an engine config? Like if the engine is kerolox burning, but configurable to methane/lox as well? I've got it set up to use TEATEB for kerolox, but I was going to have it use the fuel + electric for methane/lox configuration, and I'm not sure if I can configure the ignitor_resource differently for each config, or if it has to be in the parent config. Also could I change the ignition number for each of those?

[supersonic130]

Right click the procedural tank and you'll have options for changing tank type. If engines are attached then you'll have additional buttons for fuel configurations for each engine. Or use the Action Group editor to add fuels to it

You'll need a set of engine configs from the second post in this thread.

ok one more thing with the real fuels version of procedural tanks the nose cone that could have fuel isn't in the parts list anywhere anymore it's just the on real fuels tank plus the others (xenon, ore, mono) but no the nose cone that can hold fuel in it:P there's one in the aerodynamics tab but it doesn't have any options for a fuel type any help?

[NathanKell]

You don't need it, you can just make a smooth cone RF tank with a top diameter of 10mm.

[supersonic130]

You don't need it, you can just make a smooth cone RF tank with a top diameter of 10mm.

:Doh thanks now to get back to that space shuttle concept I was working on

[illectro]

Is there a workaround to force tanks to be pressurized? I have the correct fuel type but it shows up as highly pressurized = false and with no option I can find to change this.

edit: turns out I'd hit some I bug that was resetting my tank type, I edited the .craft file by hand to make this work

Edited September 5, 2015 by illectro

[Rabada]

I have a couple questions about using ullage motors.

I've had RCS fail to settle the fuel tanks on some of my larger craft. Im guessing that there is minimum acceleration needed for ullage? What is the minimum?

Also, what is the best way to set up the staging for ullage SRBs on the second or third stages of rockets? For example here is a rocket to put the first Kerbal into orbit of the Earth in my latest career mode game.

When my main stage runs out of fuel, I hit the spacebar (S6) to eject my main stage. Then I usually wait about 4 or 5 seconds then I'll hit spacebar (S5) to activate the 6 ullage sepratrons. Then I'll wait about 2 seconds and hit the spacebar (S5) right before the ullage sepratrons run out of fuel. This is my standard way to set up my staging for most rockets, but often times my engines fail to ignite. (I'm using RF v10.6 so I don't think its the "says stable but fails to ignite" issue)

And finally, Is it a bad idea to limit the thrust on SRB ullage rockets? I used the small sepratrons from Ven's revamp as the ullage rockets for my second stage. Their default burntime is about a second. Initially I had 4 of them with a burntime of 4 seconds but I had issues where only one of the 2 Agena 80xx Engines would ignite. After I added 2 more sepratrons and reduced their burntime to 3 seconds this problem went away. Now I'm wondering if the ullage SRBs would work better at full thrust. At first I thought increasing the SRB burn time would give the fuel in the liquid fuel tanks more time to settle. Now I don't think that's how it works though.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Rabada

[westamastaflash]

There's something screwy with how the ModuleRCSFX and ModuleEngineRF are interacting.

When I have an engine that has both sets of modules, sometimes after editing the engine settings the RCS settings don't respond - clicking the button fails to change the fuel.

Here's an example config I used on the SpaceY hybrid engine:

@PART[SYoms1]:FOR[RealFuels_StockEngines]:FINAL //SpaceY OMS/RCS Hybrid Engine
{
!MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs],* {}


@MODULE[ModuleEngine*]
{
@name = ModuleEnginesRF
@maxThrust = 60
@heatProduction = 95
@atmosphereCurve
{
@key,0 = 0 250
@key,1 = 1 33
}

!PROPELLANT,* {}

PROPELLANT
{
name = Hydrazine
ratio = 100
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
}
}


MODULE
{
name = ModuleEngineConfigs
type = ModuleEnginesRF
techLevel = 1
origTechLevel = 1
engineType = O
origMass = 0.25
configuration = Hydrazine
modded = false


CONFIG
{
name = MMH+NTO
maxThrust = 65
heatProduction = 95

PROPELLANT
{
name = MMH
ratio = 49.96554100620262
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 50.03445899379738
%ResourceFlowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
}
IspSL = 0.9600
IspV = 0.9500
throttle = 0
ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
ignitionsAvailable = 0
useUllageSimulation = true
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
ignitorType = Electric
IGNITOR_RESOURCE
{
name = ElectricCharge
amount = 1
}
}
}


CONFIG
{
name = Hydrazine
maxThrust = 65
heatProduction = 95


PROPELLANT
{
name = Hydrazine
ratio = 1
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
}
IspSL = 0.274
IspV = 0.72
throttle = 0

ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
ignitionsAvailable = 0
useUllageSimulation = true
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
ignitorType = Electric
IGNITOR_RESOURCE
{
name = ElectricCharge
amount = 1
}
}
}


CONFIG
{
name = Aerozine50+NTO
maxThrust = 65
heatProduction = 95


PROPELLANT
{
name = Aerozine50
ratio = 0.5017301
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 0.4982699
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
}
IspSL = 0.9600
IspV = 0.9500
throttle = 0
ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
ignitionsAvailable = 0
useUllageSimulation = true
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
ignitorType = Electric
IGNITOR_RESOURCE
{
name = ElectricCharge
amount = 1
}
}
}




!MODULE[ModuleEngineIgnitor] {}
ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
ignitionsAvailable = 1
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
useUllageSimulation = true


}
}


@MODULE[ModuleRCS*]
{
@name = ModuleRCSFX
@thrusterPower = 2.89
!resourceName = DELETE
@atmosphereCurve
{
@key,0 = 0 281
@key,1 = 1 101
}
!PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel] {}
!PROPELLANT[Oxidizer] {}
!PROPELLANT[MonoPropellant] {}
PROPELLANT
{
name = Hydrazine
ratio = 100
}
}


MODULE
{
name = ModuleEngineConfigs
type = ModuleRCSFX
techLevel = 3
origTechLevel = 3
engineType = L
origMass = 0.077
configuration = Hydrazine
modded = false
CONFIG
{
name = MMH+NTO
thrusterPower = 5


PROPELLANT
{
name = MMH
ratio = 0.51135562
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 0.48864438
}
IspSL = 0.4
IspV = 0.952




}
CONFIG
{
name = Hydrazine
thrusterPower = 2.89


PROPELLANT
{
name = Hydrazine
ratio = 1
}
IspSL = 0.23
IspV = 0.72
}
CONFIG
{
name = Aerozine50+NTO
thrusterPower = 5


PROPELLANT
{
name = Aerozine50
ratio = 0.48657718
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 0.51342282
}
IspSL = 0.403
IspV = 0.955
}


}





}

To reproduce the issue, add the engine to a tank.

Clicking the *second* "Show GUI" Button opens the configure window, but I can't select MMH+NTO or Aerozine50+NTO, nor change the Tech Level.

However, If I select the *first* Show GUI Button, then select the *second* Show GUI Button, and finally Hide the first Show GUI button, I can then configure the RCS Thrusters. It's like there's something in the GUI for these components that gets confused.

edit:

There may be a larger issue around the fact that we end up with two "ModuleEngineConfigs" in the persistent save file but the "type" is not persisted?

And even after doing my workaround, I have found that it seems that it doesn't apply symmetry properly. Only the one engine actually fires the RCS thrusters. Re-adding the symmetrical engines fixed that.

And then sometimes the configs disappear completely from the menu :-(

Edited September 6, 2015 by westamastaflash

[NathanKell]

illectro: RF will autoswitch from an unavailable type to an available one, so it's possible what you hit was invoking that? (I.e. if you have something as type ServiceModule but load it in a save where that hasn't been unlocked yet).

There *is* a bug where it's hard to switch tank types if not all types are unlocked (you have to click-drag the green tweakable bar rather than use the buttons).

Rabada: I'd say you're doing everything right; I too am surprised that a short sharp burn is better; it should be the same, all told, as the longer steadier burn (same total impulse should mean same settling).

westamastaflash: I'll take a look. Want to put it on the repo as an issue so I don't forget?

[westamastaflash]

westamastaflash: I'll take a look. Want to put it on the repo as an issue so I don't forget?

Issue #105 opened. Thanks!

[Svm420]

Nathan do you want me to open an issue on Git for Techlevel throttle to be fixed?

[NathanKell]

Svm420: Might as well, it'll give me the satisfaction of closing it when it's fixed. Though that _is_ foremost on my mind, I've just been rather busy with KSP stuff.

[Tank Buddy]

I have a couple questions about using ullage motors.

Also, what is the best way to set up the staging for ullage SRBs on the second or third stages of rockets? For example here is a rocket to put the first Kerbal into orbit of the Earth in my latest career mode game.

For upper stage ullage SRBs, you should separate from your previous stage and fire separation motors and ullage motors all in the same staging operation. Because the ullage motors have an insignificant mass compared to the rest of the ship, the TWR does not change so you can ignite your upper-stage engine at any point during the ullage burn. I think the fuel stays somewhat stable briefly after ullage stops, but you should just be able to fire your engines with the ullage motors. KW Rocketry has 2 very nice ullage motors that burn for a couple of seconds and provide decent thrust.

Another option is to ignite your upper stage while the lower one is still firing (some real rockets do this), although there is a risk of explosions. This is KSP after all.

[Laie]

Generally, I prefer my ullage to be active for a few seconds at little thrust. No problem in space, but during ascent, there can be too little thrust: if the ullage motors cannot overcome atmospheric drag, you have negative acceleration. Around 30km, 0.1g may not be enough.

And somehow I suspect that the sharp impulse from decouplers may be responsible for a few problems. Didn't experiment enough to be sure, though.

[NathanKell]

Ah, yeah, I was assuming this would be a vac-start, not an air-start. If you're trying to start under, say, 50km, you better hotstage.

[TomatoSoup]

I've experienced some incompatibilities with this and Tweak Scale. If I rescale an engine and then use it in a different scene (ie: I rescale it in the VAB and try to fly it or leave and re-enter the VAB), the fuel type is reset to the default. More importantly, the options to change fuels disappears and placing new copies of that part actually result in a totally empty box when I try to edit the engine (neither fuel change nor tech-level adjustment or any text at all).

I've experienced this with the stock-alike pack. I haven't tested it with other Real Fuels packs but I feel like it's likely to not be a config issue.

Is there a compatibility pack for TweakScale or Real Fuels or some other workaround known?

[NathanKell]

v10.6.1

• Fix throttling via throttle in CONFIG (minThrust was not being set properly).
  
• Work around an ignition resource issue (due to, apparently, either a float precision issue or a bug in stock KSP code).
  

EDIT: TomatoSoup, yes, known issue, hopefully will be fixed in 10.7 (if I have enough time )