[1.8+] Real Fuels

[gonzo98x]

Can anyone help with issues between RF and KER?

I have tested using a clean install and having ONLY Real Fuels and KER installed through CKAN.

Launching a rocket causes the KER delta-V readout to go to 0.0.

Now I have done some testing and when I go into the game data folder and remove the real fuels folder and swap in an older version of real fuels (just before ignitions were added) KER correctly displays delta-v during flight. I can't determine if its the ignitions code that is confusing KER. I only know that using this older real fuels folder (with the new folder of everything else like solverEngines and Module RCSFX) seems to correct the KER error.

On the launchpad the readout shows correct delta V. Once I hit spacebar the delta V goes to 0. If I cut off the engine the readout returns. It can't seem to display delta-V (or current ISP, thrust, acceleration) while in flight.

Any ideas?

[ebigunso]

Can anyone help with issues between RF and KER?

I have tested using a clean install and having ONLY Real Fuels and KER installed through CKAN.

Launching a rocket causes the KER delta-V readout to go to 0.0.

Now I have done some testing and when I go into the game data folder and remove the real fuels folder and swap in an older version of real fuels (just before ignitions were added) KER correctly displays delta-v during flight. I can't determine if its the ignitions code that is confusing KER. I only know that using this older real fuels folder (with the new folder of everything else like solverEngines and Module RCSFX) seems to correct the KER error.

On the launchpad the readout shows correct delta V. Once I hit spacebar the delta V goes to 0. If I cut off the engine the readout returns. It can't seem to display delta-V (or current ISP, thrust, acceleration) while in flight.

Any ideas?

↑↑THIS↑↑

I've posted the same issue in the KER thread before but nobody gave an answer. I do think it's more of an issue on the RF side so it would be nice if this could be brought to light.

[Starwaster]

Can anyone help with issues between RF and KER?

I have tested using a clean install and having ONLY Real Fuels and KER installed through CKAN.

Launching a rocket causes the KER delta-V readout to go to 0.0.

Now I have done some testing and when I go into the game data folder and remove the real fuels folder and swap in an older version of real fuels (just before ignitions were added) KER correctly displays delta-v during flight. I can't determine if its the ignitions code that is confusing KER. I only know that using this older real fuels folder (with the new folder of everything else like solverEngines and Module RCSFX) seems to correct the KER error.

On the launchpad the readout shows correct delta V. Once I hit spacebar the delta V goes to 0. If I cut off the engine the readout returns. It can't seem to display delta-V (or current ISP, thrust, acceleration) while in flight.

Any ideas?

↑↑THIS↑↑

I've posted the same issue in the KER thread before but nobody gave an answer. I do think it's more of an issue on the RF side so it would be nice if this could be brought to light.

*Extreme skepticism*

I'm having trouble seeing how this is not a KER issue. It's just a fact of modding life that as mods experience change in their code base that other mods have to make corresponding changes to keep up.

Like back when Deadly Reentry used to simulate parachute damage if deployed at excessive speeds. If Real Chute made changes to its code base that affected how we detected RC state changes then we had to make changes to Deadly Reentry and until those changes were made then Deadly Reentry was not compatible.

Mech Jeb is working just fine with RF displaying the same information you're looking for in KER. Why? Because MJ's developer made changes to keep pace with RF changes.

[ebigunso]

ok then... I'll try posting in the KER thread again. But since it was not answered before, it might not be brought to attention just by doing so. It would be nice if in that case somebody within RF's development team could notify them of this.

[gonzo98x]

I understand there are many moving parts when talking about compatibility between two mods. I'm not pointing fingers either. I've posted the same issue in the ker thread and no one said anything.

I'm hoping that if others have the same issue someone has found a fix.

I also try to explain the issue with as much info as possible in hopes that someone much smarter than me can help.

I dug into the code a bit but nothing jumps out at me.

The thing is, has no one used Real fuel with ker this whole time these past few months?

If not, what's everyone else using to monitor flight stats?

[westamastaflash]

I've found that once i stop thrusting, the Delta V readout in kerbal engineer returns. Which makes me think perhaps it might have something to do with ModuleEnginesRF and perhaps a property that KER is looking for is not being updated while the engine is running?? I just use the mechjeb window if i need to keep an eye on DV now.

[Starwaster]

The thing is, has no one used Real fuel with ker this whole time these past few months?

If not, what's everyone else using to monitor flight stats?

I just use MechJeb for my statistical needs.

I've found that once i stop thrusting, the Delta V readout in kerbal engineer returns. Which makes me think perhaps it might have something to do with ModuleEnginesRF and perhaps a property that KER is looking for is not being updated while the engine is running?? I just use the mechjeb window if i need to keep an eye on DV now.

Have you checked your log for errors when the DV readout disappears in KER? I don't recall seeing any logs submitted on this issue.

[ebigunso]

I just use MechJeb for my statistical needs.

Have you checked your log for errors when the DV readout disappears in KER? I don't recall seeing any logs submitted on this issue.

I've checked inside the output log file before, that time with a different issue but I don't remember seeing any logs related to this in there, so I think this particular issue doesn't leave a log in the outputlog.

[regex]

It's just a fact of modding life

#moddinglife4lyfe

The thing is, has no one used Real fuel with ker this whole time these past few months?

I use Engineer exclusively and I have noticed some strange things in flight. I don't care so much though, since it's accurate in the VAB when I'm planning a mission, so I haven't bothered to really check into what may be going wrong or when. What seems to happen is that delta-V is calculated correctly for non-active engines.

[Starwaster]

#moddinglife4lyfe

Yo...

Ten chars

[Starwaster]

Just published a new update to Real Fuels, v10.7.0

This is very probably the last update before KSP 1.0.5?

(unless it's something minor like to assign more VSP data to resources needing it)

Link to RF latest

https://github.com/NathanKell/ModularFuelSystem/releases/latest

Change log

* Revamped boiloff code for cryogenic propellants to be compatible with KSP 1.0.x thermodynamics

(tanks will be properly cooled by evaporation of boiled off resources)

* For now, only LqdOxygen, LqdHydrogen, LqdMethane and LqdAmmonia use the new system. (others may be added if needed)

* Insulation can be either for the whole tank part or per each internal tank.

* Fix issue where TL was not being correctly reset on config change.

[NathanKell]

Woot! OP updated!

[Jovus]

What does this mean for boiloff in layman's terms? Over time, will it boil off more? Less? Roughly the same amount, but certain cases are now different?

[Starwaster]

What does this mean for boiloff in layman's terms? Over time, will it boil off more? Less? Roughly the same amount, but certain cases are now different?

Kind of bit of all of the above.

The problem with the old code was that it was based on temperature only, which is all we had pre KSP 1.0. When KSP 1.0 arrived, there was a minor change made where boiloff mass was actually removing heat but the rates of outgoing and incoming heat weren't really in sync so the part temperature would peak much higher and the boiloff rate would be a lot higher than it should have been.

The new code does still use the temperature but only to calculate the incoming heat flux and the boiloff is based on actual 'heat of vaporization' values. What that 'boils' down to (forgive the pun please) is that the heat removed through evaporation is pretty much the amount of heat that it took to vaporize it to begin with. The internal part temperature will tend to be a little higher than the coldest resource which does help with boiloff rates.

The one thing I don't like about this system is that it's too effective at eliminating boiloff for other resources in the same tank part. For instance if you have LqdOxygen and LqdHydrogen in the same part, the oxygen is pretty much not going to boil at all. There is actually precedent for that so it's not totally unrealistic but realistically it should only reduce the oxygen boiloff and not eliminate it outright. (of course, once that hydrogen finishes boiling off then your tank will rise in temperature until the LOX starts to boil)

One thing that I didn't put in the changelog is that time warp rates above 100x freeze the tank temperature because the system uses a different means of calculating heat (an analytical mode that is less expensive computationally), so you can also time-warp without fear of watching your hydrogen tanks vent their contents in the blink of an eye.

Edit: One caveat is that conducted heat from engines is still a bit brutal though I've tried to mitigate that for cryogenic tanks (cryo balloon too). Engines just put out way too much heat unfortunately.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Starwaster

[NathanKell]

RealFuels engines shouldn't be producing much heat anyway, if they are that should be lowered. That's the point of having an independent chamber temp rather than using part.Temperature itself as a proxy (with all the weird conduction that flows from that).

[Jovus]

Thanks for the explanation, Starwaster! (Also, I will not forgive the pun - I demand more!)

This brings to mind two potentially-unintended, but to my way of thinking very cool (heh heh) use cases:

1) putting a cryogenic resource tank directly behind a heat shield in an attempt to protect the rest of your craft. Expensive, silly, and yet strangely alluring.

2) lack of boiloff at higher timewarps might very well make use of cryogenic fuels viable for interplanetary travel. I'm not sure if I should personally consider this an exploit, or a workaround for functionality that will be added later. (Added later in the whole RO suite, not necessarily in RF.)

[Starwaster]

Oh no, you'll definitely have boil off at high time warp rates, what I meant by that was that it protects against what would otherwise be unnaturally high boil off

KSP 1.0.5 will allow better handling of what happens at higher time warp rates

[Jovus]

Right. Gotcha.

[Starwaster]

I have to say, I learned a lot more about the US space program in the 60s during the course of working on the new boiloff system. I always thought I was fairly knowledgeable about it, but there's so SO much more fascinating information out there. Always something new to learn.

Just as an example, wet workshops. I knew it was a thing they'd wanted to do but I had no idea how many design / re-design decisions were influenced by wet workshops. Like the size of the 'dollar' cap on the Saturn V third stage, that manhole cap. Originally it had been much smaller and Von Braun and others wanted to enlarge it to accommodate a docking port. Unfortunately they couldn't fit it into the budget, but then they discovered that a cracking problem in the tank could be solved by enlarging the dollar segment so they killed two birds with one stone.

Fascinating stuff.

[NathanKell]

It's worth noting that DynaSoar was indeed to be cooled by LH2 boiloff, so your idea is not at all far-fetched.

[Jovus]

Yeah, I'm hoping I can make an XR-1 with LOX in the wings to simulate the refrigerated double hull.

[MatterBeam]

Hi.

Any idea why the 'next configuration' button for the B9 Procedural wings, that normally adds the option to turn wings into fuel tanks, does not work in Real Fuels + RO? It doesn't work with stock wings either.

[NathanKell]

Bug in B9 cfgs, look at the last few pages of the B9 proc wings thread.

[westamastaflash]

This new update to realfuels doesn't seem to be being indexed by CKAN?

[NathanKell]

Starwaster apparently packed the zip different from how we normally do, and CKAN didn't know what to do with it. The CKAN folks kindly updated our metadata to work with either directory structure, so it should be appearing shortly.