The only thing thing that I care to see in .24

[PDCWolf]

So if they're on the case why complain?

Because they said so at least 2 years from now, I think it's reasonable to complain about a bug that has been there since the beginnings of the game, like people asking for new engine FX.

[metl]

What's wrong with the engine FX? I think they are just fine. As for wobble, KJR does a good job of removing the wobble while still making rockets susceptible to excessive forces. For those that think we should not need a mod to fix a bug, keep in mind this is still an alpha release and is still quite some time away from a launch. For an alpha, this game is very well polished. Bugs will get fixed or improved as the game continues to progress.

[NovaSilisko]

So if they're on the case why complain?

I believe it was said they don't want to fix it.

I loathe the wobble, and can't play the game anymore without KJR myself... fix in stock would be certainly welcome, if unlikely.

[PDCWolf]

What's wrong with the engine FX? I think they are just fine. As for wobble, KJR does a good job of removing the wobble while still making rockets susceptible to excessive forces. For those that think we should not need a mod to fix a bug, keep in mind this is still an alpha release and is still quite some time away from a launch. For an alpha, this game is very well polished. Bugs will get fixed or improved as the game continues to progress.

Very well polished at the expense of really long update times that include little to no content. A lot of people agree the last good update was 0.18. And yes, it is an alpha, that's why they should be fixing such predominant bugs and focusing on new content instead of trying to keep save compatibility and getting polished "nothing" out.

The engine FX don't -need- a revamp because "they work" but they are far from being good. They are pretty much abusing the particle system into creating convincing effects instead of creating proper systems like sprites and volumetric fx, that's why we get silly stuff like srb "ground effect" in mid-air or why we have such a crappy smoke system instead of a much better looking volumetric alternative. This also includes the non-existent in-vacuum effects. There's no atmospheric dynamics for the effects (they remain constant), there's no supersonic propellant effects like shock diamonds, there's no heat disturbance or anything for that matter, just ugly particles coming out of an exhaust.

[Clockwork13]

What I've found out is that a common case of it is if your ship a lot of spherical objects. One of my rockets was pretty much spinning all over the place and I found out its because it had a lot of Mystery Goo containers attached. (Like 12)

[Draft]

Well how much weight do you want a decoupler to be able to hold before it fails? How much weight do you want to stack on top of that sensitive hollow circle of computer insrtuments and gyros?

I don't know, a bit over a hundred tons seems like a reasonable amount.

I don't understand why people defend wobble. Struts can work, but they shouldn't be necessary for the majority of cases. KJR proves that it's not some 'limitation of unity' bogyman, and there is plenty of space for amusing failure in the game without having to work around the current failure of joint implementation.

[OtherDalfite]

What I've found out is that a common case of it is if your ship a lot of spherical objects. One of my rockets was pretty much spinning all over the place and I found out its because it had a lot of Mystery Goo containers attached. (Like 12)

Yeah, radially built rockets rotate like crazy because of all the mass that isn't centered. Imagine swinging a 50 pound rocket outstretched, and then trying to slow it down.

[Seret]

Because they said so at least 2 years from now, I think it's reasonable to complain about a bug that has been there since the beginnings of the game, like people asking for new engine FX.

Honestly, what do you think your chances of getting the result you want are? I suggest you follow NovaSilisko's pragmatic stance and just install whatever mod makes the problem go away for you.

[PDCWolf]

Honestly, what do you think your chances of getting the result you want are? I suggest you follow NovaSilisko's pragmatic stance and just install whatever mod makes the problem go away for you.

I would do so if i were asking for stupid stuff like aliens and weapons but I'm asking for a reasonable thing that already should be in the game and was also promised.

[NovaSilisko]

Honestly, what do you think your chances of getting the result you want are? I suggest you follow NovaSilisko's pragmatic stance and just install whatever mod makes the problem go away for you.

Well just because I use a mod to fix it doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed in the base game... mod ought to only be a stopgap measure.

[Seret]

I would do so if i were asking for stupid stuff like aliens and weapons but I'm asking for a reasonable thing that already should be in the game and was also promised.

Promised eh? Let's take a little look at the game's Terms of Service, specifically:

Squad is under no obligation to implement any given set of features prior to the final release for KSP or any future title. All posted lists of planned features are unofficial and do not imply a promise by Squad to deliver anything listed in them.

There are no guarantees while a game is still in development. Anything can change (or not) at any time. It sounds like this one isn't going to get changed in stock, and there's a mod available that sorts it. Seems to me that's your path of least resistance.

[Seret]

Well just because I use a mod to fix it doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed in the base game... mod ought to only be a stopgap measure.

Or to modify the gameplay to suit your tastes.

Personally I quite like the wobbliness, it's fun. I think the game would lose a bit of it's charm without it. I think this one really comes down to taste. Some people obviously prefer their KSP a bit more realistic than others, and I think that's a perfectly valid place for mods to step in. I really have no desire to use realistic sized planets, but some folks do.

[metl]

Very well polished at the expense of really long update times that include little to no content. A lot of people agree the last good update was 0.18. And yes, it is an alpha, that's why they should be fixing such predominant bugs and focusing on new content instead of trying to keep save compatibility and getting polished "nothing" out.

The engine FX don't -need- a revamp because "they work" but they are far from being good. They are pretty much abusing the particle system into creating convincing effects instead of creating proper systems like sprites and volumetric fx, that's why we get silly stuff like srb "ground effect" in mid-air or why we have such a crappy smoke system instead of a much better looking volumetric alternative. This also includes the non-existent in-vacuum effects. There's no atmospheric dynamics for the effects (they remain constant), there's no supersonic propellant effects like shock diamonds, there's no heat disturbance or anything for that matter, just ugly particles coming out of an exhaust.

So you don't want to see an engine trail in space? Gosh how boring that would be. Not to mention terrible screenshots. Every ship would just be "floating" and you couldn't ever get the "cinematic" effect. I personally think the SRB trails look really nice. Could eye-candy be improved? Sure. Is it a priority? Hardly. You want something that would need to be powered by the latest and greatest machine with volumetric smokes, heat disturbance, shock diamonds, and basically everything else which would totally remove the cartoonyness of the game. But I guess that goes back to your original stance of removing the wobble. And 0.18 was the last update to add anything? Really? And long development times? Geez man learn some patience. No wonder you're so pissed about wobble. You have no patience at all.

[PDCWolf]

So you don't want to see an engine trail in space? Gosh how boring that would be. Not to mention terrible screenshots. Every ship would just be "floating" and you couldn't ever get the "cinematic" effect. I personally think the SRB trails look really nice. Could eye-candy be improved? Sure. Is it a priority? Hardly.

But there are vissible effects in space, the most beautiful being exhaust over-expansion. That combined with heat disturbance would be great, also, don't forget the emmisives. Srb trails are ok, but they create ground effect (the dispersion as if smoke was colliding with the ground) even when in flight. I also know FX are not a priority.

You want something that would need to be powered by the latest and greatest machine with volumetric smokes, heat disturbance, shock diamonds, and basically everything else which would totally remove the cartoonyness of the game.

You don't need to kill the cartoonyness nor do you need a supercomputer to run volumetric effects.

But I guess that goes back to your original stance of removing the wobble. And 0.18 was the last update to add anything? Really? And long development times? Geez man learn some patience. No wonder you're so pissed about wobble. You have no patience at all.

There's a difference between being patient when you know stuff is coming (Space engine for example) that being patient for 3 months for half-youknow features and poorly implemented "fixes"

[I_Killed_Jeb]

PDCWolf seems to really hate this game and Squad. That being said, despite my fondness for the hilarity of the wobble I wouldn't mind if it went away mostly.. but I'd rather see other stuff in 0.24 like better science systems and 64bit support

[Draft]

Ah yes, wanting the game to have better implementation of its half-finished systems means you hate it and the developers. Truly sound logic.

[metl]

PDCWolf seems to really hate this game and Squad. That being said, despite my fondness for the hilarity of the wobble I wouldn't mind if it went away mostly.. but I'd rather see other stuff in 0.24 like better science systems and 64bit support

I actually think the opposite. PDCWolf wants to see it expand beyond it current limits. I am also in favor of the wobble fix, but I am happy to just use a mod until it is properly fixed. I would rather see an entire physics improvement instead of just patch-working here and there. While that may tackle a specific problem (such as wobble), eventually the thing would end up so cobbled together that it would need a complete rebuild anyway.

[NovaSilisko]

I actually think the opposite. PDCWolf wants to see it expand beyond it current limits. I am also in favor of the wobble fix, but I am happy to just use a mod until it is properly fixed. I would rather see an entire physics improvement instead of just patch-working here and there. While that may tackle a specific problem (such as wobble), eventually the thing would end up so cobbled together that it would need a complete rebuild anyway.

IIRC there's a version of the Bullet physics engine for Unity. I've heard a lot more good things about Bullet than PhysX. Of course, that all depends on how it's implemented. An aerodynamic system for instance still needs to be made from scratch, but from what I gather Bullet is generally much more reliable, and handles complex shapes better. Non-wobbly joints depend on setting the best settings for the joints themselves (which is all KJR does, I think?)

But of course, the game's been developed for coming on three years now using Unity's default PhysX implementation, so it would be non-trivial to go back and undo all of that...

[PDCWolf]

IIRC there's a version of the Bullet physics engine for Unity. I've heard a lot more good things about Bullet than PhysX. Of course, that all depends on how it's implemented. An aerodynamic system for instance still needs to be made from scratch, but from what I gather Bullet is generally much more reliable, and handles complex shapes better. Non-wobbly joints depend on setting the best settings for the joints themselves (which is all KJR does, I think?)

But of course, the game's been developed for coming on three years now using Unity's default PhysX implementation, so it would be non-trivial to go back and undo all of that...

Bullet physics wouldn't quite work for KSP, it would be great for calculations about penetrating stuff though.

PDCWolf seems to really hate this game and Squad. That being said, despite my fondness for the hilarity of the wobble I wouldn't mind if it went away mostly.. but I'd rather see other stuff in 0.24 like better science systems and 64bit support

Hating anything? not really. I want to get the best possible outcome, even if I agreed to the post 0.18 EULA. I may sound aggressive though, sometimes deliberately, most of the time is just because I don't know a better way of wording something.

Ah yes, wanting the game to have better implementation of its half-finished systems means you hate it and the developers. Truly sound logic.

This.

I actually think the opposite. PDCWolf wants to see it expand beyond it current limits. I am also in favor of the wobble fix, but I am happy to just use a mod until it is properly fixed. I would rather see an entire physics improvement instead of just patch-working here and there. While that may tackle a specific problem (such as wobble), eventually the thing would end up so cobbled together that it would need a complete rebuild anyway.

The only limits are unity limits (Floating point calculations, Max physic-able space, etc). And following the game I've seen a lot of "unity limitations" being circumvented or simply proved fake thanks to the modding community and sometimes even the devs themselves. I also prefer a full improvement over a patch, but I doubt squad would put the work needed into that at this point.

About mods, that's personal taste. I prefer strutting over mod-fixing because I like to share my designs (not on the forums, but directly to my friends) and they play mostly stock, so using mods would put a barrier on that. I also work hard to keep them away from mechjeb, at least until they can do everything in the game without it. Like our community manager said "It would stunt growth or something". My opinion on mechjeb (hate aside) would require a totally different thread and those always end on a flame-war and I'm always late.

[thiosk]

I'm glad I'm not in the game development business. Even in friendly communities, people freak out over everything.

[NovaSilisko]

"Bullet" physics is the name of a physics library, not physics about bullets. It's just a name for it: http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/

[PDCWolf]

"Bullet" physics is the name of a physics library, not physics about bullets. It's just a name for it: http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/

My bad then.

[TheTom]

Even better, BUllet actually can work on the GPU - running realtieme siluopations of 100k objects without problems. This is excatly what we need for a real rocket. You know, something with 20 stages, each in aspargus, 300 engines at the first stage or something like that. A stage that moves the planet

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

The only thing i care to see in 0.24...

... The Magic Boulder!

[DaMichel]

PhysX runs on GPUs too. http://www.nvidia.com/object/physx_faq.html It is designed to. I wonder if it supports multithreading on the CPU as well ...

IIRC there's a version of the Bullet physics engine for Unity. I've heard a lot more good things about Bullet than PhysX. Of course, that all depends on how it's implemented. An aerodynamic system for instance still needs to be made from scratch, but from what I gather Bullet is generally much more reliable, and handles complex shapes better. Non-wobbly joints depend on setting the best settings for the joints themselves (which is all KJR does, I think?)

They should probably just hire Ferram to deal with these things