Ares III/IV (Mun-and-Back capable), 100% stock parts

[timmybananas]

Side Note- I didn\'t really know how to post the pictures within the article, but they are in chronological order and were all taken in the same flight... hope that\'s enough!

Hey all, first original design so I figured I\'d share this for tips or possibly so it could be posted in the repository. It is composed of all stock parts, aside from the 'advanced decoupler' which has no advantage over the regular decoupler, I just think it looks cooler 8) . This was my third iteration of the model (hence the III), and the first one which I was able to reach the moon with. However, I\'m terrible at landing (not an issue of fuel, just terrible piloting :\'() and have never actually been able to cleanly land on the Moon. I\'ve reached there 4 times with about 80% of my fuel to spare, crashed twice, and the best I\'ve managed was a grazing that actually took off one of the wingtips as I lost control of my craft and I had to abort at the last second.

I called it 'Ares' to keep with the NASA mythological nomenclature, and had no idea that there actually was an Ares rocket which was planned, but ultimately cancelled. Oh well!

Stage 1 (0:00~1:03)

The first shuttle is composed of 9 LVT-30 engines, each with their own fuel cells connected via 3 tri-couplers and bound together on the inner and outer portions of the fuel cells.

Stage 2:

This stage is made up of 3 outer LV-T45 engines and also the center LV-T45 engine because I wanted a bit more thrust when establishing orbit. My initial concern was that using this engine would dry out the center tanks first, leaving me out of luck on my approach to the Mun, but then I experimented for the first time with the fuel lines and was excited to see that by routing all the outer tanks to the center tank, I could make use of the 15 other cells without touching the middle engines. This stage is mostly useful for establishing an orbit and most of the 'Mun-shot' (on my run where I took the pictures, the engines dried up just before my orbit extended within range of the Mun).

Stage 3:

This stage is basically the separation of the radially coupled engines when the outer fuel cells are depleted. This leaves the Ares with the center LV-T45 engine with 2 full fuel cells which is adequate for the Mun\'s approach.

Stage 4:

In this stage, the main lander craft separates from the engine and 2 depleted fuel cells (I ran out of fuel while decelerating to land on the Mun, but I had plenty of fuel in the Lander to 'touch-down' and return home.

Hope everyone enjoys flying it, any tips would be appreciated with building/landing the craft.

Edit: Added on the Ares IV, which takes into account some of the suggestions (RCS, extra thrust on liftoff)... I was able to reach the Mun and I still had plenty of fuel in the 'Service Module' which I had to ditch, leaving me with a full RCS tank and fuel tank for the thrusters.

[timmybananas]

Bump-- I really want to see if someone is capable of landing this thing on the Mun...

[closette]

More people will try this out if you post a .craft file with 100% stock parts, and remove the 'ish' from the post title.

Especially since the non-stock decoupler adds 'no advantage'.

[RangerDanger75]

Yeah can you either upload a version without the 'advanced decoupler' or tell us what mods you used?

[timmybananas]

More people will try this out if you post a .craft file with 100% stock parts, and remove the 'ish' from the post title.

Especially since the non-stock decoupler adds 'no advantage'.

good tip, I reuploaded the unmodified ship

[RangerDanger75]

Just got a chance to fly it to the Mun and back. Great rocket I really enjoyed flying it. The only thing that I would change about it is adding RCS. RCS is really crucial once you get out of atmosphere. Plus it makes landing on the Mun significantly easier by aiding with minor adjustments once you get within 50m of landing.

[closette]

Also just did a quick Mun trip. First time without any RCS. Very easy to fly and after the first stage was gone, it took very little time to get into a 160km orbit.

Just a couple of suggestions.

1. Yes you need RCS. I suggest one tank as part of the lander/Mun return stage and one in the Mun transfer orbital stage. That lower one gets used up in maneuvering so can be thrown away just before landing, and the upper tank will help you with landing, and with getting home. (I ran out of liquid fuel for the trip back because I messed up my Mun escape trajectory. One RCS tank would have saved their lives).

2. Launch and first stage was sluggish, and therefore not fuel efficient. You need to add some SRBs (at least 3) for launch, and perhaps another 3 later in the first stage, to keep going.

Try to hit 100 m/s vertical speed ASAP, then at least 160 m/s by 5000m and 270 m/s by 10000m. If you do that, you\'ll find that you have more fuel later on, including an extra fuel margin for tuning your Mun orbit and approach.

If adding SRBs makes the craft less stable, you can also put static fins on the SRBs which will keep the whole craft stable AND prevent them from overheating.

Overall though, a very nice craft. I hope you can make these simple improvements and post the revised .craft file (still 100% stock!) and look forward to using it again.

[timmybananas]

I added the modifications, let me know which you prefer . I felt like I had more fuel later in the mission with the new ship, but it was a little chunky in the first 2 stages

[Kosmo-not]

Just got back from my turn at flying it.

The lifter stage could use a bit of work mainly due to thrust to weight issues. In time, you\'ll figure out staging strategies that will make your lifter lighter and more fuel efficient.

I would like to make a personal request to add another tank to the 'TMI and Mun orbit insertion stage' so I can also use it for munar descent.

No problems to report with the lander.

I almost ran out of fuel getting back to Kerbin, due to the fact that I had to use a good amount of that one tank during the descent phase. I saw the amount of fuel remaining after landing and mustered up all the piloting skill I could (I knew it was going to be iffy on whether I made it back or not). After making corrections to the return trajectory as to not get my kerbals squished by G forces, I had a tiny sliver of fuel left. Talk about cutting it close!

[closette]

I gave both versions a try. Strong preference for at least one RCS tank on there, partly because it can be handy as a 'lifeboat' if you mess up and run out of fuel for the trip home.

The Ares IV looks pretty ugly with the 2-stage SRBs but does work well - good thrust/weight on ascent.

[timmybananas]

The Ares IV looks pretty ugly with the 2-stage SRBs but does work well - good thrust/weight on ascent.

I know, if there was a way to rotate the tricoupler I could arrange the center engines in a way that would allow for the SRBs to be more symmetrical around the center it would probably not look so bad.

[timmybananas]

Update: With the Ares IV design, I was finally able to safely land on the Mun!

[Tim_Barrett]

I don\'t think it is wise to have an entire first stage of engines with gimbal incapabilities. Thats the main problem.

[MedwedianPresident]

I think, you need to add not-stock-parts to Ares.

Just download Mods.

[closette]

...but then it wouldn\'t be '100% stock', would it? And I for one would not be able to fly it, unless you are telling everyone on this thread to 'just' download and install the same mods as well.

This craft can accomplish its mission just fine, and can be improved by design.

[JWebb]

Hi,

flying to Mun and back is possible with stock-parts. I did it with my own rocket built with the stock parts before I became aware that there are mods...

My lander was quite similar to the one shown here (using 4 wings as landing gear) but it had two tanks in order to be able to fly back and have the luxury of some spare fuel...

But however I tested a couple of different lander designs and rockets. The best design was finally the lightest one.

Anyway too many stages are not good for the delta v you need for getting to Mun.

Actualy may rocket had a total of only three stages including the lander:

1. stage: 3 boosers, each consisting of:

5 x tanks, one wing, tri-coupler, 3 x the big engine.

2. stage: 3x4 tanks, 3 big engines combined at the top with one tri-coupler.

The booster are connected at the lower end with each one side coupler.

3. stage (the lander): SAS, RCS tank, 4 RCS thruster, 2 x tank, 4 side coupler (triggered together with the final coupler releasing the capsule mounted as far down as possible at the bottom), 4 wings (attached to the side coupler), one small engine.

Atop of that the capusle + chute.

[timmybananas]

I appreciate the feedback from everyone guys!

I think, you need to add not-stock-parts to Ares.

Just download Mods.

I know that there\'s a lot of really well done mods out there, I myself have a few on KSP that I use. However, as closette said, for this ship I was trying to keep it all stock parts. If you want to add modded parts, I\'d be really interested to see what you can do with it 8)

I don\'t think it is wise to have an entire first stage of engines with gimbal incapabilities. Thats the main problem.

I agree, the first stage is a bit unwieldy. To be honest, the more I play the game, the more flawed I see the staging as, because I need the bigger engines to provide the proper thrust in the earlier stages. At this point, the changes I would make to this ship would make it completely different, so I figure I\'d rather create a new ship than optimize the current design.

[JWebb]

Hi,

the lesson I learned from my rocket designs is:

- keep it simple

- reduce dead mass to a minimum.

A consequence from that is not to use too many stages. The idea behind staging is to get rid of dead mass once tanks become empty. But every stage has its own dead mass consisting of decoupler and engines that compares to the dead mass of empty (!!) tanks.

So it is worth to check the mass of each component and see whether an additional stage adds more Isp or not.

You will soon end up having only a small number of bigger stages because the mass of decouplers + engines is significantly higher than the mass of an empty tank.

That means you better can afford to carry several empty tanks with you for a while instead of having several small stages.

This is basically what I used to design my 3-stage-to-Mun (and back) rocket.

[timmybananas]

Hi,

flying to Mun and back is possible with stock-parts. I did it with my own rocket built with the stock parts before I became aware that there are mods...

My lander was quite similar to the one shown here (using 4 wings as landing gear) but it had two tanks in order to be able to fly back and have the luxury of some spare fuel...

But however I tested a couple of different lander designs and rockets. The best design was finally the lightest one.

Anyway too many stages are not good for the delta v you need for getting to Mun.

Actualy may rocket had a total of only three stages including the lander:

1. stage: 3 boosers, each consisting of:

5 x tanks, one wing, tri-coupler, 3 x the big engine.

2. stage: 3x4 tanks, 3 big engines combined at the top with one tri-coupler.

The booster are connected at the lower end with each one side coupler.

3. stage (the lander): SAS, RCS tank, 4 RCS thruster, 2 x tank, 4 side coupler (triggered together with the final coupler releasing the capsule mounted as far down as possible at the bottom), 4 wings (attached to the side coupler), one small engine.

Atop of that the capusle + chute.

Is there any way you could possibly post the .craft file so I could see exactly what you\'re referring to?

Thanks for the feedback!

[neoblacksmith]

i am going to!