Some ideas for additional science parts

[CaptainShark]

I've been playing with the career mode a bit as of late, having bought KSP quite a few patches ago, back when re-entry effects were big news and the sun was no longer a point of light.

Anyway: I noticed something which seemed a bit odd to me in terms of balance/immersion and the like: following the removal of "science spam" as a viable option (a good thing), it seems that there isn't really any incentive to have permanent structures like bases or stations save for refueling platforms and "because I can", which i still good, but doesn't have much pay-off in terms of the currency of career mode. So I got to brain storming on a few ideas which could fix that, and here's what I came up with:

- Telescopes:

Possibly in a couple varieties, for instance: a small one one could place on a satellite, a larger in-line one for use in larger space ships, or a giant 3.5m one the size of the entire lab module or a large fuel tank, something akin to the real world Hubble telescope in appearance. The idea of these would be that they would remain in orbit and generate science based on their view of the sky, for instance: getting more science for (obviously) being outside atmosphere, but still more for being farther away from the sun (reducing glare). Maybe even have a few flavors of them, like radio telescopes, infra red, and so on.

- Research labs:

Essentially simmilar to the telescope idea, but a "micro-gravity research lab" of some kind which would slowly generate science over time. Of course requiring constant flow of electricity and the presence of Kerbals to make it work. Could have plenty of potential for funny quotes as well given we've all seen footage of astronaughts having fun with microgravity.

- External experiments rack

Something for the Kerbals to visit while on EVA, this would be something simmilar to the materials observation bay but instead of yielding science upon recovery, would yield results and be refreshed via direct intervention of a kerbal on EVA.

- Soil sampler

Effectively: a robotic arm or the like which would allow an automated probe to perform the same action as a kerbal on EVA, ie: collecting samples from the surface of a body. Obviously this would require return, so this doesn't exactly address my initial inspiration, but I thought it was neat.

- Cameras:

This is probably the oddest of these ideas: basically the idea would be to be able to take photos from your probe, rover, station etc, and these would be transmitted back to the KSC and put in a "gallery' of some form. Basically integrating into game the idea of taking screenshots. These could then net a small amount of science based on what you got in-frame, maybe even have special bonuses for finding easter eggs like the monoliths. These could even be integrated into career mode some time down the line when costs and public interest are factors to be considered.

- Core sampler

The idea behind this one is basically "soil sample on steroids": basically a large component which requires a kerbal, constant flow of power and time to extract a sample from the surface of an object. This, like most of the others i've listed are the sort of things you'd have to "set and leave for a bit", in order to get a return out of them, thus incentivising longer duration structures and missions.

A note on balance:

These are NOT in my mind a replacement for having big sample and crew return missions, rather something which would generate a "slow but steady" flow of science points as opposed to the big jumps you get from acomplishing a major mission. of course with time acceleration there would be room for abuse there, but since when is that not the case with time acceleration.

[xrayfishx]

All of them are good ideas, I can't disagree with any of them.

[Random Tank]

More variation in Science collection is always a nice idea, and the parts you've thought would be very cool, but the problem is the tech tree. The tree needs a major rebalance, as it is very easy to unlock with a few science parts just in the Kerbin System... So more parts really wouldn't be needed; all they need to do is add multiple difficulty levels for the tech tree, with the harder ones not only having more nodes with less parts in each (still same amount of parts though), but increased node science cost too. Then these parts would be useful to justify the increased science cost for the tech-tree.

Good idea anyway!

[alecdacyczyn]

I like the idea of the core sampler. A Mineral Analyzer like the grinder/microscope/laser/spectrum-analyzer thing that the Curiosity rover on Mars has would also great. What we really need is a good reason to build rovers (beyond just screwing around ). Currently, there is nothing that a rover can do that a stationary probe can't do equally well. Imagine a procedurally generated scattering of rock and boulders of varying composition and rarity (maybe a dozen+ different kinds). It'd give you a reason to drive around and do sciencey things.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I like most of the ideas, but every time I see a suggestion about something 'continually producing a steady amount of Science', I can never agree with it. If the rate is too high, it can be abused by timewarping for a few years so obviously, the rate should be lowered. But to what? If it's too low, there's no point in it being there. I personally think there's no middle ground to be found - there'll always be some people that are patient enough to timewarp for a few years and to stop them, it'd be lowered too much to be useful.

I do like the external experiments rack thing though. Always down for more reasons to EVA.

[Amaroq]

ObsessedWithKSP - the obvious solution there is a "hard cap" for that object. Set it up so that, say, 1 year generates all the science it can ... up to you whether you time-warp +1 year, or run other concurrent missions while you wait for it.

[Random Tank]

ObsessedWithKSP - the obvious solution there is a "hard cap" for that object. Set it up so that, say, 1 year generates all the science it can ... up to you whether you time-warp +1 year, or run other concurrent missions while you wait for it.

That's not a bad idea, it just generates science over a year (maybe better ones that do more? Like 3-5 years?) and it just auto sends it the surface so long as the craft/station has a transmitter. 1 science per day is a nice number, 426 science in a year; just make it require about 25E/s, which 2 gigantors would provide pretty well for day and could last the night; you could even connect it up the the MPL to gain a bonus of maybe... 0.5 science per day? Isn't too bad supposing the energy required...

You'd have to make it so it would use up electricity even when the ship isn't active though; that shouldn't be too hard with a little script that works out energy used vs. energy produced and takes it out of the battery. To encourage people to make sure it has energy all the time you could make the lab take 2-3 to 'warm-up' (won't make any science until warmed up) after it turned off due to lack of energy.

[SargeRho]

Magnetometers, we need magnetometers.

[BudgetHedgehog]

ObsessedWithKSP - the obvious solution there is a "hard cap" for that object. Set it up so that, say, 1 year generates all the science it can ... up to you whether you time-warp +1 year, or run other concurrent missions while you wait for it.

That's a solution I hadn't thought of and I like it. TAC LS makes inactive vessels still use resources, so I know it can be done to make it so a station must always need electricity. 1 Science a day for 1 year is a reasonable number, with little bonuses for other bodies to encourage long term residence there. That, along with life support and everything would make a pretty fun game I think.

[SRV Ron]

Remote sampler can come in two flavors;

1. A tool for a probe to collect and return a sample a third of the way in Career.

2. A tool for a probe to collect, analyses, and transmit the results back to mission control. That should be a larger part later in career that would be useful for probes that are unable to return from planets such as Eve.

I see that career mode science points will become more balanced in later versions from the current placeholders now in use.

[SRV Ron]

I like most of the ideas, but every time I see a suggestion about something 'continually producing a steady amount of Science', I can never agree with it. If the rate is too high, it can be abused by timewarping for a few years so obviously, the rate should be lowered. But to what? If it's too low, there's no point in it being there. I personally think there's no middle ground to be found - there'll always be some people that are patient enough to timewarp for a few years and to stop them, it'd be lowered too much to be useful.

I do like the external experiments rack thing though. Always down for more reasons to EVA.

Such a device should have a limited number of times it can conduct the experiments before it wears out or runs out of analysis resources. Likewise, a limited operating life span once landed.

Then' of course, there is Voyager which is still sending back science information after 36 years in operation.

[awsomejwags]

here is a mod with most of those http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/dmagicorbital/

[andrewas]

That's a solution I hadn't thought of and I like it. TAC LS makes inactive vessels still use resources, so I know it can be done to make it so a station must always need electricity. 1 Science a day for 1 year is a reasonable number, with little bonuses for other bodies to encourage long term residence there. That, along with life support and everything would make a pretty fun game I think.

TAC LS cheats - life support is consumed at a constant rate unless the player changes the crew complement which can't be done while the vessel is on-rails, so it just has to look at elapsed time when the ship is loaded again. Kerbals are alive up to that moment, and then suddenly they died six months ago when the air ran out.

Electricity, though, is mostly generated by solar panels, so the rate changes with distance from the sun and is cut off when the sun is occluded. A TAC LS style cheat would be much harder to do properly because it would have to calculate the vessels path since it was put on rails - oh, and said path is unstable if it crosses into a different SOI at high time warp - and simulate the power generation and consumption. The best solution would be to have code running even on on-rails vehicles. Done carelessly this could kill performance, but its the best way to simulate on-going activities on inactive ships.

[Random Tank]

TAC LS cheats - life support is consumed at a constant rate unless the player changes the crew complement which can't be done while the vessel is on-rails, so it just has to look at elapsed time when the ship is loaded again. Kerbals are alive up to that moment, and then suddenly they died six months ago when the air ran out.

Electricity, though, is mostly generated by solar panels, so the rate changes with distance from the sun and is cut off when the sun is occluded. A TAC LS style cheat would be much harder to do properly because it would have to calculate the vessels path since it was put on rails - oh, and said path is unstable if it crosses into a different SOI at high time warp - and simulate the power generation and consumption. The best solution would be to have code running even on on-rails vehicles. Done carelessly this could kill performance, but its the best way to simulate on-going activities on inactive ships.

I thought TAC LS would do something like that; its probably better to do those calcs when you load the ship rather than having them running constant in the background. Eventually this problem will be solved, as the devs want to add life support, so mods could then use their technique... Whenever that will be!

I think it'd be fair letting solar panels just produce at 100% capacity while not loaded; it just avoid all the code to find out what direction the ship is facing and what angle the panels are at. Just make so if it goes behind a body, they stop, but otherwise a gigantor produces 18E/s (when not loaded)

[CaptainShark]

I thought TAC LS would do something like that; its probably better to do those calcs when you load the ship rather than having them running constant in the background. Eventually this problem will be solved, as the devs want to add life support, so mods could then use their technique... Whenever that will be!

I think it'd be fair letting solar panels just produce at 100% capacity while not loaded; it just avoid all the code to find out what direction the ship is facing and what angle the panels are at. Just make so if it goes behind a body, they stop, but otherwise a gigantor produces 18E/s (when not loaded)

Alternatively if "just take 100 percent power production" is too generous:

- average the power generated over time, ie: assuming a panel generates X amount while fully illuminated, and it falls behind a body 50 percent of the time just do X/2 as its generation

- or, ignore generation all together and just figure out if the vehicle while idle has a net drop in stored energy over a given space of time, if it does, the vehicle will eventually run dry and operation would have to stop, if not, it would continue indefinitely, theoretically anyway

[Capt Snuggler]

- Research labs:

Essentially simmilar to the telescope idea, but a "micro-gravity research lab" of some kind which would slowly generate science over time. Of course requiring constant flow of electricity and the presence of Kerbals to make it work. Could have plenty of potential for funny quotes as well given we've all seen footage of astronaughts having fun with microgravity.

- External experiments rack

Something for the Kerbals to visit while on EVA, this would be something simmilar to the materials observation bay but instead of yielding science upon recovery, would yield results and be refreshed via direct intervention of a kerbal on EVA.

I like all your ideas, but these two especially though they could possibly be merged.

I think these could be regulated by requiring the experiment packages to be delivered from the Kerbin.

"the purpose of this mission to measure the effects of weightlessness on tiny screws"

The packages could be very fragile. requiring careful flying/ship design. high Gs or impact will cause them to break.

"NO! now we may never know if ants can be trained to sort tiny screws in space"

Edited April 29, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[colmo]

Agreed with balancing the benefit of continuous science with the cost of Kerbal life support and supplies. Ideally there should be crew rotation and physical data return also.

In addition to Dmagic, there's the Beastly Science Scoop-o-matic automated sampler.

[Random Tank]

Alternatively if "just take 100 percent power production" is too generous:

- average the power generated over time, ie: assuming a panel generates X amount while fully illuminated, and it falls behind a body 50 percent of the time just do X/2 as its generation

- or, ignore generation all together and just figure out if the vehicle while idle has a net drop in stored energy over a given space of time, if it does, the vehicle will eventually run dry and operation would have to stop, if not, it would continue indefinitely, theoretically anyway

Yeah, I meant something like the first idea; just a simple algorithm that works time illuminated vs time not, and just allows the panels to provide full power during that time illuminated. I just meant that if you had a panel that was rotated at weird angle and produced 80% power when loaded, the program would just ignore this and say it produces 100% (to save loading a program that checks the panels rotation).

Anyway, this has slightly gone off topic

I think it'd be even easier to balance these science labs and telescopes when money is implemented; just make very expensive and heavy to justify the lack of effort needed to gain that science compared to interplanetary probes and landers, and use a lot of energy too. Otherwise, I'd love for these to be implemented. Now

[BagelRabbit]

I'm still waiting for a Science Sr.

The presence of a (relatively large) "Science Jr." makes me think that there will be a larger materials bay implemented at some time or another.

[Meridius]

Make the space telescope required for finding planets and moons beyond, say, Jool and an asteroid belt or two. Apply science base on time and finds. Initial thread suggestions are good and, I too, can't think of why any shouldn't be implemented.

[HafCoJoe]

I completely agree. I think probes should have more interesting pieces and animations even if they don't generate science. Science would be even better though.

[Wuz314159]

The current Science System is nice.... but it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to max out the tech tree.

But it would be nice if there was more Research Facilities out there that could be used for secondary goals.

Creating an Exo-Kerbin Base would be amazing.

Launch a research module, Hydroponics bay, telescope, habitation module, Kethane Miner type thing, +25 Kerbins & boom, You have an Extraplanetary Launchpad.

But that's my pipedream.

Getting back to more realistic things, it's dumb there is no Experiment Storage Module.

Only being able to return one surface sample / materials study / et al is unrealistic.

There should be a module where you can store a quantity of completed experiments for Kerbin return.

[Twreed87]

Getting back to more realistic things, it's dumb there is no Experiment Storage Module.

Only being able to return one surface sample / materials study / et al is unrealistic.

There should be a module where you can store a quantity of completed experiments for Kerbin return.

You can store experiments in the Command Pod. It's very easy. In fact, it does it automatically. Once you get in the pod, all you have to do is get back out and you can collect another sample.

And with the mobile lab, you can do the same with materials lab and mystery goo. Example: get into high orbit, run the experiments. EVA, have your Kerbal "Take Data", return to the Command Pod. Use the Mobile Lab to clean the experiments, and do it again. Then you can even dump the experiments without having to return them to Kerbin.

[HafCoJoe]

Twreed I think he means a storage unit in which you could store say 10 experiments instead of like 2. I agree that'd be really cool.

[maltesh]

Twreed I think he means a storage unit in which you could store say 10 experiments instead of like 2. I agree that'd be really cool.

With the exception of the science lab, any item that can carry science reports can contain any number of non-duplicate reports. Earilier in my current career save, I brought back 63 reports in a single 1-man landercan from Minmus.

The Science Lab is the exception: There is no duplicate report restriction on the science lab.