Stockalike RF Engine Configs v3.2.6 [01/20/19][RF v12]

[Raptor831]

Could you make config stuff for the RAPIER and jet engines? Thanks in advance!

I'll look into the RAPIER. For jet engines, you can just switch the LiquidFuel to Kerosene and it'll work fine. Alternatively, go download Advanced Jet Engine (which does a much better job simulating jets/SABREs) which will take care of it all.

Before forgetting to continue it, I'd been thinking of giving each 'source company' it's own fuels mixes and efficiency quirks.

For example, AEIS does probes so I was going to make most AEIS parts be + variants and use lighter and cryogenic fuels.

Each "company" at the moment has its own fuel mixtures, though everyone pretty much uses Kerolox, Hydrolox, MMH/N2O4, or UDMH/N2O4. A few items from FASA use their historical type. I had been pondering other fuel types but haven't looked at what would be appropriate.

I figure AIES would be an ESA-ish company. KOSMOS/BobCat's Russian Pack would be (obviously) Russian analogs. Most of the other packs are American in nature (FASA, KW, NovaPunch, SXT, LazTek). I might try to come up with a list of "companies" and their set of preferred fuels and post it here to see what everyone thinks.

PS - I think I've got the bi-modal engine option fixed up in the XLS, so the next update will allow you to set up bi-modal engines if you want. Might be able to cook up something for RAPIERs/SABREs as well...

[ialdabaoth]

A proposal for limiting fuel types: The following MM config will rename all of RealFuels' fuel types to a stock-like naming convention, and reduce options to something manageable. You will have the following fuel options:

SolidFuel (Aluminum Perchlorate mixture)

LiquidFuel (RP1-like Kerosene)

Oxidizer (N2O4)

CryoFuel (Liquid H2)

CryOx (Liquid O2)

MonoPropellant (stabilized UDMH mixture)

Peroxide (High-Test Hydrogen Peroxide)

@PART[*]:AFTER[RealFuels]
{
  @mass *= 0.4

  @RESOURCE[Kerosene] { @name = LiquidFuel }
  @RESOURCE[N2O4] { @name = Oxidizer }

  @MODULE[ModuleEngine*]
  {
    @PROPELLANT[Kerosene]	{ @name = LiquidFuel }
    @PROPELLANT[N2O4]		{ @name = Oxidizer }
    @PROPELLANT[LiquidH2]	{ @name = CryoFuel }
    @PROPELLANT[LiquidOxygen]	{ @name = CryOx }
    @PROPELLANT[UDMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant }
    @PROPELLANT[Aerozine]	{ @name = MonoPropellant }
    @PROPELLANT[MMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant }
    @PROPELLANT[HTP]		{ @name = Peroxide }

     @CONFIG[*]
     {
      @PROPELLANT[Kerosene]	{ @name = LiquidFuel }
      @PROPELLANT[N2O4]		{ @name = Oxidizer }
      @PROPELLANT[LiquidH2]	{ @name = CryoFuel }
      @PROPELLANT[LiquidOxygen]	{ @name = CryOx }
      @PROPELLANT[UDMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant }
      @PROPELLANT[Aerozine]	{ @name = MonoPropellant }
      @PROPELLANT[MMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant }
      @PROPELLANT[HTP]		{ @name = Peroxide }
     }

  }
  @MODULE[ModuleHybridEngine*]
  {
     @CONFIG[*]
     {
      @PROPELLANT[Kerosene]	{ @name = LiquidFuel }
      @PROPELLANT[N2O4]		{ @name = Oxidizer }
      @PROPELLANT[LiquidH2]	{ @name = CryoFuel }
      @PROPELLANT[LiquidOxygen]	{ @name = CryOx }
      @PROPELLANT[UDMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant }
      @PROPELLANT[Aerozine]	{ @name = MonoPropellant }
      @PROPELLANT[MMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant }
      @PROPELLANT[HTP]		{ @name = Peroxide }
     }
  }
}

!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[MonoPropellant] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[LiquidFuel] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Oxidizer] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Hydrazine] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Aerozine] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[MMH] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Syntin] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Nitr*] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Amines] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Alcohol] {}
!RESOURCE_DEFINITION[MON*] {}

@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[Kerosene]		{ @name = LiquidFuel }
@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[N2O4]		{ @name = Oxidizer }

@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[LiquidOxygen] 	{ @name = CryOx }
@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[LiquidHydrogen] 	{ @name = CryoFuel }
@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[UDMH] 		{ @name = MonoPropellant}
@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[HTP] 		{ @name = Peroxide}
@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[UDMH] 		{ @name = MonoPropellant}
@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[HTP] 		{ @name = Peroxide}

@TANK_DEFINITION[*]
{
  !TANK[LiquidFuel]
  !TANK[Oxidizer]
  !TANK[MMH] {}
  !TANK[Aerozine] {}
  !TANK[Syntin] {}
  !TANK[NitricAcid] {}
  !TANK[NitrousOxide] {}
  !TANK[Amines] {}
  !TANK[Alcohol] {}
  !TANK[MON*] {}
  !TANK[Hydyne] {}

  @TANK[N2O2]		{ @name = Oxidizer }
  @TANK[Kerosene]	{ @name = LiquidFuel }
  @TANK[LiquidOxygen]	{ @name = CryOx }
  @TANK[LiquidH2]	{ @name = CryoFuel }
  @TANK[UDMH]		{ @name = MonoPropellant] }
}

[Raptor831]

A proposal for limiting fuel types: The following MM config will rename all of RealFuels' fuel types to a stock-like naming convention, and reduce options to something manageable. You will have the following fuel options:

SolidFuel (Aluminum Perchlorate mixture)

LiquidFuel (RP1-like Kerosene)

Oxidizer (N2O4)

CryoFuel (Liquid H2)

CryOx (Liquid O2)

MonoPropellant (stabilized UDMH mixture)

Peroxide (High-Test Hydrogen Peroxide)

...snip...

Personally, the abundance of fuel types isn't a burden, it's more variety in my rockets. I like the idea of having to manage those decisions, like which engine to use, from which "company", and with which fuels to use. True, stuff like toxicity isn't really modeled, and rocket engines aren't built to use multiple fuel types, but I like the fact that I feel like a "real" rocket engineer when building my rockets. SpaceX uses Kerolox for both the 1st and 2nd stage on the Falcon 9, so let's use that. Space Shuttle used Hydrolox for the whole trip, let's check that out.

I'm planning on doing some actual research (maybe this weekend) about what fuel types different agencies use and seeing if I can overlay that onto my configs. If enough people would like the RF-lite fuel choices, I can try to swing up an XLS/config for the engines.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Raptor831
Grammar...

[Raptor831]

Wanted to post an update on progress with regards to fuel types. Here's the "companies" I've broken everything down into:

*NOTE: I goofed on the Nitric Acid and have it incorrectly labeled as NO2.

Basically, I took some real space agencies/companies and looked at their rockets to see which fuels they commonly use. I checked Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Astronautica mostly for my specifics. The fuel/oxidizer ratios are based on what was already in the XLS to begin with as a standard, actual engine ratios, or a list of fuel/oxidizer combinations with their ideal ratio listed (then edited in line with other engines).

For which mods get put into which category, I just picked them based on what I thought was a best fit. So, KOSMOS is a Russian-type, AIES is an ESA-type, HGR is a Chinese-type, etc. SXT is kind of in the middle, since it does both NASA-type parts and Russian-type parts. I dropped that in the Russian category because FASA has most of the space race era covered for NASA, and I was leaning toward variety.

The only glaring problem is that I can't find a mod to fit the "UK"-style of non-toxic only fuels. I originally had RLA there, but that has so many monopropellant engines that it didn't make sense to me. I really wanted to include as many fuel types as possible (which is partially why I added a Methane/LOX mixture to the "SpaceX" category), so not using Kerosene/HTP is bugging me, even if it is/was rarely used. I would have used some MON* oxidizers as well, but I didn't find any solid data about its use and Astronautica apparently just calls it N2O4 anyway (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSLV vs http://www.astronautix.com/engines/pslv4.htm ).

All that said, please do leave any comments/suggestions you might have about this. I'm also wondering on "monopropellant" engines (RLA and Space Shuttle Engine mod's OMS engines) whether to default the mixtures to Hydrazine, HTP, and some MMH(UDMH)/N2O4 mix. Which would relegate the stock MonoPropellant to RCS systems entirely, unless you get the RO configs for RCS and ModuleRCSFX.

[AlyxMS]

When I was using the Liner Aerospike from the shuttle engines mod only one of the two engine modules of the aerospike engine had its propellant changed.

So only half of the engine works.

The other half is still using liquid fuel.

Can this be fixed?

[Raptor831]

When I was using the Liner Aerospike from the shuttle engines mod only one of the two engine modules of the aerospike engine had its propellant changed.

So only half of the engine works.

The other half is still using liquid fuel.

Can this be fixed?

There should only be 1 mode/half for the aerospike. Sounds like it's using both the ModuleEngines and ModuleEnginesFX. In the config, change the @MODULE[ModuleEngines] to @MODULE[ModuleEngineFX] for that particular engine and let me know if it works properly.

[AlyxMS]

I changed it, still, only half of the engine works.

The engine config had 2 ModuleEnginesFX, I assume only one of them is changed by modulemanager.

[MNorman]

The only glaring problem is that I can't find a mod to fit the "UK"-style of non-toxic only fuels. I originally had RLA there, but that has so many monopropellant engines that it didn't make sense to me.

Lots of monopropellant engines would make sense for the UK as they did investigate monopropellant first stages. Unfortunately, they used HTP, which is a heat-catalysed reaction, and tends to break down when stored for a long time in a large volume. This, of course led to several explosions, and never got used in a production vehicle. In addition, the only product of the UK since the abandonment of the Black Arrow launcher has been satellites. Given that, RLA would be ideal for 'UK' propellant mixtures. In addition, Black arrow was a small launcher, capable of putting only 135kg into LEO, but is had 8 engines on the first stage. I could only match this with RLA.

[Raptor831]

I changed it, still, only half of the engine works.

The engine config had 2 ModuleEnginesFX, I assume only one of them is changed by modulemanager.

Double checked the original config again, and you are correct. Didn't realize he set up the engine that way. You should be able to duplicate the changes to the first half to apply to the second half using MM's indexing. So, replicate the @MODULE node and put @MODULE[ModuleEngineFX],1 on the first and @MODULE[ModuleEngineFX],2 on the second. It should "work" for now. I'll have to check it out and see if there's a nice way to accommodate that in the XLS. Can't say that I've seen two different engines within the same part before.

Lots of monopropellant engines would make sense for the UK as they did investigate monopropellant first stages. Unfortunately, they used HTP, which is a heat-catalysed reaction, and tends to break down when stored for a long time in a large volume. This, of course led to several explosions, and never got used in a production vehicle. In addition, the only product of the UK since the abandonment of the Black Arrow launcher has been satellites. Given that, RLA would be ideal for 'UK' propellant mixtures. In addition, Black arrow was a small launcher, capable of putting only 135kg into LEO, but is had 8 engines on the first stage. I could only match this with RLA.

Thanks for the insight. I'm certainly no expert in these matters, so I appreciate the feedback. I read NathanKell stating that in his Reaching for the Stars alternate history he'd kept the UK using non-toxic fuels, so I was avoiding that given that MonoPropellant is generally assumed to be Hydrazine. Sounds like I had RLA in the best spot anyway, though.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Raptor831

[Shad0wCatcher]

Alrighty; sorry for the long delay on my response Raptor; the only way I was able to get NTRs to function was by leaving the "old" (prior to your takeover) stockengines MM file along with yours inside the RF folder. That, however, had/has the nasty side effect of duplication of many engine configs and all sorts of other badness (including nuclear fuel / generators in the retro rockets for laughs). Now that I have internet access again going to try for a full re-install and see if that repairs things.

[Raptor831]

Alrighty; sorry for the long delay on my response Raptor; the only way I was able to get NTRs to function was by leaving the "old" (prior to your takeover) stockengines MM file along with yours inside the RF folder. That, however, had/has the nasty side effect of duplication of many engine configs and all sorts of other badness (including nuclear fuel / generators in the retro rockets for laughs). Now that I have internet access again going to try for a full re-install and see if that repairs things.

Does the RF "stock" bimodal NTR work for you? I may have to download that particular part and test with it, since I don't use that pack currently.

Also, I do have a new config coming with that engine (along with a bunch of other tweaks), so I may just need to release that finally. I'll try to do that tonight after work.

[Shad0wCatcher]

Negative. The only one that functioned out of the box was the KSPX 2.5 meter NTR (I love it so much still ). I'm in the process of re-downloading all my mods and updating right now (I was using RF 6.0 and PP 0.9.11); going to start with a clean slate. That should solve the issue. Quick question, though. Is your config meant to be standalone? The one I did have (when I last posted prior to today) had a conditional that I don't recognize (forrealfuels-stockengines) (not the correct syntax, I think the hyphen was an underscore).

[MNorman]

Thanks for the insight. I'm certainly no expert in these matters, so I appreciate the feedback. I read NathanKell stating that in his Reaching for the Stars alternate history he'd kept the UK using non-toxic fuels, so I was avoiding that given that MonoPropellant is generally assumed to be Hydrazine. Sounds like I had RLA in the best spot anyway, though.

I am not an expert in these either. My information on the fuel selections, inclding the attempts at large monoprop first stage engines, come from Ignition!, which is by far the best source of information on poor fuel choices.

[Raptor831]

Negative. The only one that functioned out of the box was the KSPX 2.5 meter NTR (I love it so much still ). I'm in the process of re-downloading all my mods and updating right now (I was using RF 6.0 and PP 0.9.11); going to start with a clean slate. That should solve the issue. Quick question, though. Is your config meant to be standalone? The one I did have (when I last posted prior to today) had a conditional that I don't recognize (forrealfuels-stockengines) (not the correct syntax, I think the hyphen was an underscore).

I've just updated the OP with the new config. Try that and see where you end up. The last engine in the file is your bimodal NTR from the Copernicus pack, so look there if you start tweaking.

The newest RF and newest PP should work just fine with this config. The conditional is essentially a future-proof suggested to me by swamp_ig. Basically, in the future it will tie those configs with this stockalike setup to prevent double edits. And it shouldn't affect anything at this point, because the FOR condition is just an information flag to MM (if I understand correctly). NEEDS is the "You have to have this folder/mod" one. As long as there's only one RF engine config, you should be good.

I am not an expert in these either. My information on the fuel selections, inclding the attempts at large monoprop first stage engines, come from Ignition!, which is by far the best source of information on poor fuel choices.

Well, most of my info is from Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Astronautica. I trust them enough to make reasoned estimations. May have to look at that site, though.

For everyone, the new config and XLS are up. I've adjusted the solid motors to better reflect accurate weights of the casings (i.e. I read the instructions, so the dry-mass was increased). Also, I've added a new engine or two from the listed mods like the new SuperDracos from LazTek. Lastly for the config, I've updated the fuel/oxidizer types to match the spreadsheet (with RLA moved to the 'UK' section). If you've got current missions those engines should be ok since the info is stored in the persistence file, but you might want to make a backup of your saves just to be safe. You have been warned!

The XLS has some new goodies, like the ability to choose ModuleEngines or ModuleEnginesFX (some engines can choke if it's the wrong one and you have certain mods, like HotRockets! installed), and to set up multi-modal rockets (i.e. bimodal NTRs). It was tested with bi-modals, but as long as RF can handle tri-modal, it won't stop you. YMMV.

As always, let me know if you find errors/bugs or if you have suggestions.

[Shad0wCatcher]

Sounds good raptor; this is all just a philosophical exercise at this point anyway. Re-downloaded everything afresh and so far it's all working fantastically. 6.2 of RF w/ MM 2.4.4 and your config as of Monday. Haven't unlocked NTRs yet in the new career (Ackander's Vertical Tech tree...haven't tried anything sandboxy yet as I just got everything re-installed last night...forgot just how friggin' MANY mods I use. Total folder size was3.9 gigs when I backed it up this morning >.> 7zip compression brought it down to 819 but still)

[andrehsu]

Shouldn't engines that use hypergolic nitrogen-based fuel have infinite ignitions?

"Hypergolic rockets are usually simple and reliable because they need no ignition system"- wikipedia

[DasBananenbrot]

I see you made a config for Blackhearts Aerojet Kerbodyne parts. How about a config for his KLSO parts?

[NathanKell]

You open and shut a valve enough times, it's gonna break. Especially if it's near multiple-thousand-degree furnaces called thrust chambers.

[Shad0wCatcher]

But but but...everything is fixed with the addition of carbon nano-tubes!

[Raptor831]

Shouldn't engines that use hypergolic nitrogen-based fuel have infinite ignitions?

"Hypergolic rockets are usually simple and reliable because they need no ignition system"- wikipedia

As Nathan also pointed out, the fuels ignite, yes, but the "ignitions" in EI are really restarts. HoneyFox has some explanation on the EI thread as well, but basically every engine is rated for X number of restarts (hypergolic fuels or not) due to wear on the parts. This has been abstracted down in-game to "ignitions". Hypergolic engines *generally* are easier to restart because they don't need some kind of ignition source/spark, but (just like an automobile) you only have so long with an engine before it needs repairs or refurbishment. And since we're in space, it's not all that easy to swap out the spark plugs.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention, you can grab the XLS and force then engines to have unlimited ignitions or not. If you se the EI mode to "2" and the ignitions to "0" you'll get unlimited ignitions. Just copy the configs out to a file and use that instead of the stockalike config.

I see you made a config for Blackhearts Aerojet Kerbodyne parts. How about a config for his KLSO parts?

Oh, wow, I didn't realize that mod had new engines. ...downloading... I should be able to add those to the config. Next time I update it, be on the lookout for those.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Raptor831

[andrehsu]

As Nathan also pointed out, the fuels ignite, yes, but the "ignitions" in EI are really restarts. HoneyFox has some explanation on the EI thread as well, but basically every engine is rated for X number of restarts (hypergolic fuels or not) due to wear on the parts. This has been abstracted down in-game to "ignitions". Hypergolic engines *generally* are easier to restart because they don't need some kind of ignition source/spark, but (just like an automobile) you only have so long with an engine before it needs repairs or refurbishment. And since we're in space, it's not all that easy to swap out the spark plugs.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention, you can grab the XLS and force then engines to have unlimited ignitions or not. If you se the EI mode to "2" and the ignitions to "0" you'll get unlimited ignitions. Just copy the configs out to a file and use that instead of the stockalike config.

How do you copy the configs out to a file?

[Raptor831]

How do you copy the configs out to a file?

The instructions are in the "Docs" tab in the XLS, but basically in the "Engines" tab you can select all of the MM Configs in it's column, copy, then paste into a text file. Remove the " characters and then save as somefile.cfg.

[andrehsu]

The instructions are in the "Docs" tab in the XLS, but basically in the "Engines" tab you can select all of the MM Configs in it's column, copy, then paste into a text file. Remove the " characters and then save as somefile.cfg.

Thats quite a genius method,because I was originally going to painstakingly edited one by one by hand. Thanks

[andrehsu]

The instructions are in the "Docs" tab in the XLS, but basically in the "Engines" tab you can select all of the MM Configs in it's column, copy, then paste into a text file. Remove the " characters and then save as somefile.cfg.

Also, what do I change in order to make it so that hypergolic fuel have infinite ignitions and cryogenic fuel have limited ignitions?

[DasBananenbrot]

Oh, wow, I didn't realize that mod had new engines. ...downloading... I should be able to add those to the config. Next time I update it, be on the lookout for those.

Nice. Thanks for your awesome work on these configs