How's Revert Flight/Quicksave going to work with the new budget/cost system?

[Franklin]

I'm assuming Revert Flight/Quicksave as we know it are here to stay, especially now that there's actual cost to rockets forthcoming, and screwing up and losing one or a dozen rockets will quickly toss you into bankruptcy. But has that been considered with having infinite Mulligans?

I mean the threat of losing a multi-billion dollar rocket is effectively null if you can always snap back to a Quicksave or Revert Flight if the launch wasn't absolutely perfect. Is there a concern at all that these nanny elements will cheapen any actual threat of punishment (over-budget, bankruptcy) for not playing perfectly?

As it is we take Revert Flight/Quicksave for granted: launched without solar panels? You revert flight. Aerobreak a little too deep? You jump back to your last quicksave. It's all designed to reduce stress and save the player time, but the counterbalance is it also reduces challenge and the reward there of.

Anyway, I have no real opinion on the matter, I'm curious what others think.

[Eric S]

I have no problems with it, if you don't think it's fair, don't do it. I usually revert, sometimes I don't because what went wrong was interesting in its own way (an excuse for a rescue mission, swapping out a module on a mothership, etc).

And yes, the devs have expressed the opinion that they have no problems with revert as it applies to budgets and career mode, though it's possible that they might change their minds (or already have, for that matter). So I'd expect Revert flight and quicksaves to be as freely available as they are now, though I wouldn't be surprised if they added a knob to disable them (the flag is already there in the persistence file).

[the_bT]

This effect of almost zero risk of failure is in all games with a quicksave feature, it is a natural side effect of the mechanic (or any saving mechanic for that matter).

Even if you were to remove quicksaving, players could still exploit the autosave feature to get the same effect.

And it is a good mechanic to begin with anyways.

It would not be a good idea to try and add some sort of cost to it, you cannot explain that inside the game world. From the game world perspective no time passes but you lose something wich should not be possible, therefore it will break immersion. Some players care a lot about such issues.

Better make some sort of iron man game-mode or mod that disables quicksaves and reverting in a career save.

I think I would try it... I will try to try it without a mod, I don't know if I have the willpower once the first crew dies because I crashed an already landed plane by braking to hard or something stupid like that...

[Pecan]

Anyone taking away my ability to revert better provide a way to simulate my computer simulating launches before simulating launching launch vehicles.

[Commissioner Tadpole]

SOLUTION: Whenever you revert a flight(not quicksave), you're refunded only 80% of the money you spent on it.

[Frontsau]

KSP is a singleplayer game in which you can basicaly do what you want.

If you think, the revert flight button is cheating or undermines the challenge of the game: don't use it. This game is as hard or as easy as you want it to be. Nobody can prevent you from going into the config files for parts and build a super light, super strong and super efficient engine. For me, that wouldn't be too much fun, but maybe for someone else thats just what he/she wants.

And its the same with the revert flight feature. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you think its okay: go ahead.

[regex]

Better make some sort of iron man game-mode or mod that disables quicksaves and reverting in a career save.

See that link in my sig? Yeah, that one. It has the mod you're looking for. IT WILL MAKE YOU A GOD AMONG BOYS. Seriously.

Also, the options are there to be enabled as the player desires. Most people won't want to restrict their ability to revert, others will want to try a career save without that ability for "fun". I think it's best to remain as an option rather than try to hack it with punishing mechanics.

[katateochi]

personally I don't think there should be any penalty or restriction on using quicksaves. I think it should be up to the player to choose if they use them or not, after all KSP is a game where you make up the rules. I don't think the budget really makes much difference in this matter, its the same "is quicksave cheating" question, just with an added resource.

There are some cases where mistakes happen that are genuinely not your fault, ie if a mod glitches, some inconsiderate person phones you or your cat thinks the keyboard looks like a nice place to sit. Having to pay an in game cost for some random RL interference or a game glitch would really vex me.

I like to do some missions without quicksaving, its a nice challenge and a little more on the edge of your seat. But I'm also a perfectionist and sometimes I like to re-run things till I get it absolutely perfect. I also like to be able to reload past quicksaves (I use something that tracks all my quicksaves, link in sig) just to see how things where 2 days ago, or to get a scr-shot that I forgot to take.

There are many many reasons to use quicksave that are not just about recovering from mistakes. It's also something that I see as being outside the realm of "in game" so applying some in game rule to it doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[Duke23]

Anyone taking away my ability to revert better provide a way to simulate my computer simulating launches before simulating launching launch vehicles.

Agreed. I think I could live without quicksaves as I have been trying to cut down on them anyway but I mostly use revert for "simulations." If you can't simulate launches then this would get really expensive really quick. Even with the quicksaves though, sometimes I screw up something small that (I feel) just shouldn't break an entire mission that's been in planning for kerbin months or years.

[Kasuha]

I hope the Revert functionality stays as it is. Meaning if you revert to VAB, you get money back and can try again with a completely different design.

Since you can backup your persistence file any moment and return to it later, there's no reason for it to work differently.

[IllicitMedic]

I don't get why this always gets brought up, every game I've ever played with "career" mode or whatever its called blah blah have always had a save feature...and I always use it before big changes etc.

Not sure what makes this game any different.

[cantab]

Anyone taking away my ability to revert better provide a way to simulate my computer simulating launches before simulating launching launch vehicles.

This already exists. It's called copying the craft file into a sandbox save.

At the moment, though, I'd say quicksave is needed to counter game bugs as much as anything else. If my Tylo lander crashes because I screw up the piloting that's one thing. If it's randomly eaten by the kraken before I even do the deorbit burn that's quite another.

Remember that reverting may save you from dumb oversights like missing parts or wrong staging, and it may save you from pilot error, but it won't tell you that you could have done the mission with a cheaper engine, and if you run more than one mission at a time (which contracts may encourage) it won't save you from a delta-V shortage without throwing other progress away.

[Specialist290]

Dropping this in Development Discussion, since that's basically what this is. Carry on

[sumghai]

I'm of the personal opinions that budgets and contracts should strictly be for long-term mission and infrastructure planning considerations, and not be affected/penalized by quicksaves or reverts.

[stupid_chris]

The exact same discussions popped up when science was introduced. Pretty sure the conclusion back then is the same as it should be now: it's all up in your game, you'Re the only one penalized or advantaged by that, so do as you will. Removing options like this is by all means a bad idea, especially for modders.

[magnemoe]

This effect of almost zero risk of failure is in all games with a quicksave feature, it is a natural side effect of the mechanic (or any saving mechanic for that matter).

Even if you were to remove quicksaving, players could still exploit the autosave feature to get the same effect.

And it is a good mechanic to begin with anyways.

It would not be a good idea to try and add some sort of cost to it, you cannot explain that inside the game world. From the game world perspective no time passes but you lose something wich should not be possible, therefore it will break immersion. Some players care a lot about such issues.

Better make some sort of iron man game-mode or mod that disables quicksaves and reverting in a career save.

I think I would try it... I will try to try it without a mod, I don't know if I have the willpower once the first crew dies because I crashed an already landed plane by braking to hard or something stupid like that...

This, its also very easy to bypass any restrictions with backup of save files.

You could also test designs in sandbox (simulator) and the real life (career)

Saves is another parameter, revert is for launch reload save is for landing,

[ecat]

Ooo. Good chance to practise the game design methods I've been studying.

If you revert flight or return to a save point you will lose up to half of the cash equivalent to the resources you spent during the time you have wound back. If you wish you may subscribe to the Pay to Play service and purchase a 'Craft Insurance Plan' valid for a single launch of a single craft which removes the revert/save penalty for that craft.

Okay. That was a joke. It is frighteningly close to the sort of shenanigans some devs will try but I'm sure SQUAD would never, ever even think of stooping so low.

[Red Iron Crown]

No penalties for quicksave or revert, please. It's no different than the save game mechanic in any other game, you just go back in time and have all the stuff (money, science, crew, ships) you had at that point.

I honestly don't see why it would be desirable to change this well-established game mechanic just because we have budgets.

[rtxoff]

What's happening in the new career mode if you run out of funds anyway????

I guess editing save file and have funds again...

[Kasuha]

What's happening in the new career mode if you run out of funds anyway????

I guess editing save file and have funds again...

My guess is you open list of contracts and pick one that does not require you to have any initial funds.

But we'll only know the right answer when 0.24 comes out.

[BudgetHedgehog]

No penalties for quicksave or revert, please. It's no different than the save game mechanic in any other game, you just go back in time and have all the stuff (money, science, crew, ships) you had at that point.

I honestly don't see why it would be desirable to change this well-established game mechanic just because we have budgets.

This. I don't see how it'd be a problem, seeing as reverting erases any progress. To think that reverting should penalise you is absurd, it's no different to reverting now.