peadar1987 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) So your lander has a mass of 6000kg (we'll assume something like the LK lander, but with mass savings from modern composite materials). You need to get it to a low lunar orbit.That requires a delta-V of 3.94km/s. Call it 4km/s.Your mass budget for this is 25,000kg. This is the most that the CZ5 can put in LEO.Using the strout.com delta-v calculator again, using a hypergolic fuel like hydrazine with an ISP of 350, we can get 8,000kg into lunar orbit. This gives 2,000kg for the upper stage, which needs to take into account engines, fuel tanks, separators et al. If you use cryogenic hydrogen, and are quick about using it before it boils away, you can get an ISP of 450, and that gives you 4,000kg for your booster and fuel tanks, which is still on the low side, but might actually be possible. However, you need an engine that can burn hydrogen for that, and as far as I know, the Chinese don't have one.Let's be optimistic, and assume it can be done. We have our lander in lunar orbit. Woohoo!That's about the maximum mass we can get there though.Our CSM needs to have a delta-V of about 820m/s, minimum. Ideally we'd like more, but we'll work with what we have.It also can't use hydrogen as the propellant, it needs to use something like hydrazine or nitrogen tetroxide, giving its engines a maximum ISP of about 350s.If we want the delta-V to get our Taikonauts home from the moon, we need a capsule that has a dry mass of about 4700kg.You know, I actually think that can just about be done, if we use a crew of two, and they don't mind being crammed into pretty hellish and cramped conditions for the entire mission.However, this isn't really possible with current technology, there would need to be huge amounts of research done developing a light enough capsule and lander, as well as a hydrogen-fuelled upper-stage engine, and even then the mission would be incredibly difficult for the men and women who were sent up there. I still suspect that it would be easier to actually design a heavier lifter and just use Shenzhou. At least that would have more spin-off uses than a super-light translunar coffin! Edited July 19, 2014 by peadar1987 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenomorph555 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Why not revive the soviet L3 (LOK,LK,Block D) and just launch the parts separately on cz-5's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanamonde Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Folks, please calm down before your tempers get you into trouble, and remember that criticizing nationalities will get a thread locked. Politics is not a subject we can allow on our multi-national forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythic_fci Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Why not revive the soviet L3 (LOK,LK,Block D) and just launch the parts separately on cz-5's.Inefficient. 2 launchers will already stretch the budget, let alone 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky_walker Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Nah, I'm sure ministry of propaganda would cover any additional expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78stonewobble Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 No matter who, they could be the first to crawl a significant distance on the moon? Call guinness records!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Ross Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 The complexity of a moon landing mission using only the CZ5 is fraught with difficulty, the Delta Ve margins are way too tight and you might as well throw safety out of the window. As you say, it would be more cost effective longer term for the Chinese to develop a true SHLV capability.They do in fact have an ongoing study for a SHLV the Long March 9, but it really is just that, a paper booster.Much as I dislike it, SLS really is the only game in town when we are realistically talking about a lunar programme capable system.Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenomorph555 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Nah, I'm sure ministry of propaganda would cover any additional expenses.Unfortunately they arn't too big on space propaganda, apart from updates now and then and being proud they don't really use it. North korea on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikaneko Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 China: they are the only country committed to it right now except Russia but they keep procrastinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinkAllKerb'' Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 something from earth (at least), you know that meaningless falling rock that belong to every being on it, whatever the nation *undergrrrrrrrrrrrrrrround hound*oh and *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rus-Evo Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 The nations with the greatest capability aren't willing to spend the money.China seems like the best bet as they seem to be approaching exploration in a slow sustainable way (sustainable financially). They also don't have to worry about what voters want them to spend money on from one 4 year period to the next). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peadar1987 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Unfortunately they arn't too big on space propaganda, apart from updates now and then and being proud they don't really use it. North korea on the other hand...North Korea don't need to land on the moon, they're quite happy just to make it up. Probably tell the population their entire world-cup-winning squad went there on the way home from Brazil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fleet Master Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 If I had to bet it'd be on China. They are the only country in the world who's space program isn't horribly underfunded and they realize the importance of space travel for our race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew123 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 If I had to bet it'd be on China. They are the only country in the world who's space program isn't horribly underfunded and they realize the importance of space travel for our race.Or maybe they realize the importance for their checkbooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekes Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Zokesia. (tenchar) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASAFanboy Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Zokesia. (tenchar)Perhaps. First, you must either claim a territory, probably in the unclaimed areas of the Antarctic, and form up an sizable military force of friends and supporters that will make any invasion of your territory a liability for any foreign nation and enforce your borders. Preferably, you could lobby for favors from the United States (Such as giving you weapons, supplanting your economy, building the basic infrastructure), although this would mean allowing American companies onto your land with special privilieges and making your nation somewhat democratic. Then you have the issue of building a massive industrial economy from a remote and hostile land along with building entire cities without basic infrastructure. Expand your population and military. Build fleets of ships, arm your troops. Make a impact on the stock market and try your best to get voted into the United Nations SecurityCouncil. Then, at that point, you can consider developing a space program and going to the Moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew123 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Perhaps. First, you must either claim a territory, probably in the unclaimed areas of the Antarctic, and form up an sizable military force of friends and supporters that will make any invasion of your territory a liability for any foreign nation and enforce your borders. Preferably, you could lobby for favors from the United States (Such as giving you weapons, supplanting your economy, building the basic infrastructure), although this would mean allowing American companies onto your land with special privilieges and making your nation somewhat democratic. Then you have the issue of building a massive industrial economy from a remote and hostile land along with building entire cities without basic infrastructure. Expand your population and military. Build fleets of ships, arm your troops. Make a impact on the stock market and try your best to get voted into the United Nations SecurityCouncil. Then, at that point, you can consider developing a space program and going to the Moon.Don't worry. All we need is to obtain a few nuclear warhead armed minuteman missiles, hire a few South African mercenaries, bribe a few lobbies, buy some surplus military equipment, and clone a few genetic templates to populate our nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohax Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 The US has a plan to build a moon base by 2025 (this happened since they discovered water in the craters in 2009).But China would win the race, they are most probably planning the mission already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenomorph555 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The US has a plan to build a moon base by 2025 (this happened since they discovered water in the craters in 2009).But China would win the race, they are most probably planning the mission already.Since when has that been a plan? Also it was india that discovered the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASAFanboy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Since when has that been a plan? Also it was india that discovered the water.The USA discovered/confirmed water on the Moon with the LCROSS mission, prior to that was mostly speculation. Also, officially, NASA doesn't have a plan for a base by 2025. It got canned as a result of the Augustine Commission. However, if you read about the ongoing private partnerships and the high potiental of startups such as Golden Spike along with robotic missions to the Moon in 2015 and 2018 that test technologies needed for colonization, I wouldn't be surprised if NASA had a private-government moonbase before 2030 rolls around.@Mohax. CNSA's funds are strictly controlled and filtered into the projects. It's a rather fit they have with no room for extras or errors (CNSA budget is at 1.3 billion USD). I don't think they would have the funds to develop craft for a lunar expedition that could be pulled off at 2026-2027 at the earliest. Needless to say, I'd think that NASA has a small chance to beat China but will probably arrive a little later (3 months is my guess) with ESA and Russia popping immediately in the years after that. Edited July 21, 2014 by NASAFanboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASASpace Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The United States was the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth. The question is which nation will be NEXT, or seventh, or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythic_fci Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The United States was the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth. The question is which nation will be NEXT, or seventh, or whatever.I was going to reply with a sarcastic comment, until I realized what you meant... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denks Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The US has no need to go back to the moon, it's focused on Mars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishInferno Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The US has no need to go back to the moon, it's focused on Mars.Returning to the Moon could benefit the Mars effort (or at least better than visiting an asteroid). We could build a base to get used to resupplying and living in a hostile environment while still being (relatively) close to Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy4422 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Please watch the last post dates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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