Kerbodyne SSTO Division: Omnibus Thread

[Wanderfound]

It's a "how long is a piece of string" thing; there are too many other factors. But even in NuStock you should be well over 1,000m/s before lighting the rockets. You want to climb as fast as you can to 15,000m, then level off and build speed as you slowly ascend.

I'll post a basic NuStock demonstrator tomorrow.

[Mikecraft]

Man, all of these "products" look really well made! Since i am "adequate" with making space planes. May i Join Kerbodyne SSTO Division? (Also, this is my first interaction with these forums, so, Yay!)

[eddiew]

It's a "how long is a piece of string" thing; there are too many other factors. But even in NuStock you should be well over 1,000m/s before lighting the rockets. You want to climb as fast as you can to 15,000m, then level off and build speed as you slowly ascend.

Stuff starts exploding at that speed and altitude though

I'm on the brink of turning heat off, or at least down, because right now it's failing the "is it fun" test...

*edit* Ok, I lied, stuff doesn't explode at 1km/s - but you do need to be about ready to kick to rockets at that point. Scimitar class light spaceplane, first thing I've built that made it to vacuum in 1.0!

Lit the nuke at 22km. Only the nacelles have oxidiser, and I just let the rapiers burn out on it from ~27km and up, which gave a very healthy 136 apoapsis. Fuel lines lead to the nerva, which now gets all the remaining LF, to the tune of 550m/s when in orbit. Unfortunately the cargo bay currently contains a fuel tank and parachutes, so it's not actually capable of carrying anything until I refit it. Or just clip the tanks, since there's no oxidiser in the mk2 piece and it doesn't feel very cheaty to do so.

I also don't know if it will survive re-entry... 4 air brakes on the top only, which I think will hold the nose up... but I really don't know for sure :S

*edit edit* Airbrakes are OP. Deployed them at 60km, and never went above 1500 degrees on the descent. Not where I'd have liked to land, but I'll take anything I can get! Gliding in nuStock is bad though...

*edit edit edit* Spoilered images.

Edited April 29, 2015 by eddiew

[Wanderfound]

A quick demo of how to fly to orbit and back in the new aero:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

- - - Updated - - -

Man, all of these "products" look really well made! Since i am "adequate" with making space planes. May i Join Kerbodyne SSTO Division? (Also, this is my first interaction with these forums, so, Yay!)

Feel free to do whatever you want [1].

Welcome to KSP...

[1] This thread is basically all my own designs; the "Kerbodyne SSTO Division" thing is just for fun. But if y'wanna borrow part or all of the name, that's fine; I've got no exclusive rights to anything.

[ExplorerKlatt]

The solar panels thing isn't a bug. See below.

Parts:

- LV-N “Nerv†Engine now runs solely on Liquid Fuel and has no gimbal.

- OSCAR-B tank can now be surface attached

- Air-breathing engines now drain fuel evenly from all tanks in a vessel.

- Fixed radial decouplers not applying ejection forces correctly.

- Parachutes no longer cause massive G spikes when opening.

- Control Surfaces can now be deployed as flaps, controllable via context menus and Action Groups.

- Stats of Antennas revised for a proper progression with the more advanced models.

- Added nicknames to all engine parts.

- Revised and balanced part costs.

- Balanced fuel amounts for Mk2 and Mk3 tanks.

- Balanced engines (Isp/thrust/mass) in line with the new aerodynamics.

- Added fuel gauge to LV-1 “Ant†engine.

- Materials Bay now faces away from the part it’s radially attached to.

- RoveMate rover body is now a probe body as well.

- The unshrouded solar panels are now non-retractable.

- Balanced probes electric charge usage, mass and crash tolerance.

- Lowered crash tolerance of the Structural Pylon to 70 from 999!

- All parts given ‘bulkhead profile’ tags in cfg files. Profile tags inferred automatically for parts missing this field.

- Cargo bays now properly detect enclosed parts, and can be grouped to make larger bays.

- Experiment Modules, Solar Panels, Antennas and such will not deploy while stowed inside a fairing or cargo bay.

- RCS thrusters will not function if stowed inside a closed cargo area (or fairing).

- Lifting surfaces will not generate lift if stowed inside a closed cargo area (or fairing).

[Wanderfound]

What the hell is the point of making that change? There are a heap of different situations that make you want to retract your solar; reentry, docking, payload deployment...

Oh well, shielded panels on everything from now on then.

[Zucal]

What the hell is the point of making that change?

While it's an unnecessary and bad change, there is some logic to it. They wanted to balance the shielded v. unshielded panels, previously the only difference between the shielded and unshielded was that the shielded ones weighed more. No one wanted to use them, so they nerfed the unshielded ones.

[Wanderfound]

Seems like increased drag and vulnerability to heat/wind on unshielded panels would've been a better way to do it.

[eddiew]

Seems like increased drag and vulnerability to heat/wind on unshielded panels would've been a better way to do it.

That would have been more sensible, I agree... if you don't stick them in a cargo bay/fairing, they rip off on launch; that qualifies as a difference ^^;

Doesn't matter a lot for probes I guess, as long as they aren't landers for Duna/Eve/Laythe. Presumably the devs wanted them to be geared to vacuum ops only.

[Somtaaw]

Been a while since I last visited here.... that was a long arsed read to catch up on all Wanderfound's products. Whew!

Ok, back now with a cold one... unshielded solar panels not being retractable, to me anyways, is a way to try and give us incentive to only use them on things we never plan to bring back to Kerbin; ie satellites. Shielded extendable, or the stock single-panel, are now intended to be the primary "manned" or at least "re-entry capable" go-to solar panels.

And @Wander, have you considered going to a KSP blog style for actual release / showcasing your fabulous spaceplanes? Going to sound like I'm pitching them, but the Skunkworks guys have a thread for questions and chatting, and then a blog where it's very easy to see all their products in a row, without clutter.

And might post in a while, with a new "can you Kerbo-tune my SSTO", the new 1.0 aero is kicking my ass. Brought my old Oops mk3 kerbodyned in on a re-entry and watched it push over Mach 9 and went keboom.

[UnusualAttitude]

I'm looking forward to trying out NuFAR too.

Meanwhile in NuStock, getting spaceplanes to space is a walk in the park...

They're just headless ghost spaceplanes...

[eddiew]

On the off chance that none of this thread's lurkers (and owner) have spotted this post by Rune...

Turns out the key is to follow the Mach effects, without blowing up. Basically, the closer you are to Mach effect territory, the more air you will have for your engines and the higher their thrust will get (the effect is quite dramatic, actually). If you go too slow, they won't give you enough oomph, so pull down AoA again until you get mach effects and a decent acceleration, then go up basically as fast as you can. But, once you get close to the thermal barrier (about 1km/s at 20kms, less if lower) you have to pull up to go higher, faster and thus avoid burning up.

And I am pretty darn sure he's dead on with it. I was struggling to get my new

into LKO while flying by hard numbers, but as soon as I started to just pay attention to whether or not there was visible air disturbance around the plane, suddenly it made orbit on the first try.

Only good for small satellites, but I'm happy with it as a starting point

Edited April 29, 2015 by eddiew

[rodion_herrera]

What Rune described is basically how spaceplanes work in Orbiter Space Flight Simulator. Considering that Harvester and some of the Devs are orbiter users, I'm not surprised..

...The XR Fleet in this add on package behave almost exactly as Rune describes...

http://www.alteaaerospace.com/

...also DanSteph's DeltaGlider...

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/index.php?page=download

Again I believe that Harv and the devs patterned the new aerodynamics and ceilings for air-breathing or RAMjet characteristics on these Orbiter craft. Like it served as a template. Granted, Kerbin's atmosphere is different or "scaled down" compared to Earth's but the "feel" of the ascent is mimicked quite well.

Anyone else here have experience with these Orbiter craft? I wish to know your opinion if the new KSP aerodynamics let the aircraft/spaceplanes behave similarly to the Orbiter spaceplanes, specifically the XR series and the DeltaGlider Mark IV.

[eddiew]

What Rune described is basically how spaceplanes work in Orbiter Space Flight Simulator. Considering that Harvester and some of the Devs are orbiter users, I'm not surprised..

Lol, how cheeky

That said, I'm actually quite pleased that it seems there are visual cues about whether you should be going up, or going faster - if only these were described somewhere! This effect and knowledge actually makes it really easy to fly the perfect line to get an SSTO to orbit.

The down side is that the point you need to kick to rockets is way sooner than it used to be. Sure, I can chase 27km on air, still, but the speed just won't be as good, and the resulting orbital delta-v of the ship isn't adequate for the jobs they used to do. Clearly orbital refuelling is now going to be a major requirement for spaceplaners. Shame, I really liked my Munplanes, but we shall adapt and overcome I guess.

[Wanderfound]

Lol, how cheeky

That said, I'm actually quite pleased that it seems there are visual cues about whether you should be going up, or going faster - if only these were described somewhere! This effect and knowledge actually makes it really easy to fly the perfect line to get an SSTO to orbit.

The down side is that the point you need to kick to rockets is way sooner than it used to be. Sure, I can chase 27km on air, still, but the speed just won't be as good, and the resulting orbital delta-v of the ship isn't adequate for the jobs they used to do. Clearly orbital refuelling is now going to be a major requirement for spaceplaners. Shame, I really liked my Munplanes, but we shall adapt and overcome I guess.

Give it some time; I'll be very surprised if I can't still get a nuke/RAPIER hybrid into orbit with 3,000m/s in the tanks. Small wings, big tanks, just enough jet to crack 1,000m/s at 25,000m and just enough rocket to reach orbit.

[blowfish]

Be aware that nukes are somewhat inoperable at the moment, particularly in vacuum. Hopefully this will be fixed in 1.0.1.

[Wanderfound]

Guess what you can fit into a service bay?

[Alias72]

awwww its so cute. Can I pet it? Actually micro sats are one of my favorite things to build. and this one looks efficient!

[eddiew]

Be aware that nukes are somewhat inoperable at the moment, particularly in vacuum. Hopefully this will be fixed in 1.0.1.

I prefer to think of them as limited to 40% throttle xD But yeah, the plane I was working on last night had to be calibrated so that there was enough oxidiser for the rapiers to get the AP to 100km; much less and the nerva didn't have enough room to stabilise the orbit before it fell back into the atmosphere :/

Seems like a silly change to me. LV-Ns are already low thrust, there was no need to gimp them by making them even worse for the long burns that you are guaranteed to be doing with them x(

- - - Updated - - -

Guess what you can fit into a service bay?

Did you just make a satellite... with a satellite in it?

[Stocchinet]

Give it some time; I'll be very surprised if I can't still get a nuke/RAPIER hybrid into orbit with 3,000m/s in the tanks. Small wings, big tanks, just enough jet to crack 1,000m/s at 25,000m and just enough rocket to reach orbit.

That's the spirit!!

[eddiew]

This might amuse you guys... experiment with low tech satellite delivery options. 26T wet, 13T dry at re-entry, not excessive wing area; developed a terminal vertical velocity of 14m/s ASL. nuStock aero clearly has no concept of stalling and the nose never once dipped. Keep this bird horizontal once you're through the heat zone and it basically lands itself. The crew will always survive; the plane will survive if you get your flare timing right. Fitted 4 airbrakes, not sure it needed any at all...

Best part; turbojets and LV-45s. All around low-tech option for getting those early satellites into space. The one pictured has 2k delta-v, so good for Kerbin SOI or Duna.

Not sure the frontal ram intake is required... possible that the cockpit could be the pointy flavour and work just as well.

[Somtaaw]

So I got a little annoyed at getting no less than 4 contracts pop up of "you must deploy a new space station at X". Decided I sure as hell wasn't going to wait for a pig to fly it, and I want my planes to be sporty... so I built this behemoth.

Packing an S3 KS-25x4 engine in the back, and one helluva lot of LFO. 4 verners on each facing and no less than 2 ASAS modules to give it plenty of space-side agility. This jet delivers stations faster than a pizza guy getting told he's getting to bang his pr0nstar of choice at the location.

Still need to finish tuning it, or getting someone else to do it, because I frankly suck at planes.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Somtaaw

[TokiTech]

I made something similar but smaller base to save weight and powered by 8 rapiers. Was plan to make it a minimalist SSTO Space Shuttle, struggled to carry 18t payload, probably better with 10t.

Edited May 1, 2015 by TokiTech

[Wanderfound]

Need a low-tech stock-aero basic plane for shuttling tourists around the place?

Kerbodyne Startup. It really isn't that complicated.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Craft file at https://www.dropbox.com/s/npi5rlt8jlxpxbu/Kerbodyne%20Startup.craft?dl=0

(BTW, just as a reflection on the relative realism and difficulty of stock aero: I landed this by flying directly above the runway at 500m, putting it into a 100m/s vertical dive, pulling out of that about 20m off the deck before gently settling down without a bump and easily braking to a stop)

- - - Updated - - -

Those be some nice looking ships, y'all.

Instead of building big cargo lifters for deploying space stations, I normally just make the spaceplane into the station itself. "Station with six Kerbals and a docking port" is otherwise known as "standard Mk2 spaceplane with a passenger cabin"...

Edited May 1, 2015 by Wanderfound

[MainSailor]

So I got a little annoyed at getting no less than 4 contracts pop up of "you must deploy a new space station at X". Decided I sure as hell wasn't going to wait for a pig to fly it, and I want my planes to be sporty... so I built this behemoth.

Packing an S3 KS-25x4 engine in the back, and one helluva lot of LFO. 4 verners on each facing and no less than 2 ASAS modules to give it plenty of space-side agility. This jet delivers stations faster than a pizza guy getting told he's getting to bang his pr0nstar of choice at the location.

Still need to finish tuning it, or getting someone else to do it, because I frankly suck at planes.

Those wing strakes don't blow up? I pulled all of mine off when they were the first thing that overheated. They're so small that they have no thermal mass.