The Eve Rocks Challenge (v0.90 only)

[Laie]

Laie, am I allowed to refuel on ground?

E.G. I have a base and a craft with docking/refueling capabilities and enough fuel in the base.

Is it allowed or not?

On the ground, on Eve? Better not. See this post (also browse a page back and forward, that topic went on for a couple of posts).

The problem isn't refueling itself, but mining, of course. Slashy has once proposed a plan where he'd land an empty (= lightweight) lander, and also land a number of tanker-rovers to fill up the lander. That would be acceptable, though I don't quite see the benefit of that scheme.

[2001kraft]

Ok. I'm not mining, I don't have Kethane.

I would just land some fuel tanks unto Eve and then dock my spaceplane I mean, um, spacecraft to it.

If it's still strictly prohibited, there's no problem, I'm cool, I'll try something else like dock a booster to de-orbit and then take off from Eve with full fuel tanks of the craft.

Of course landing my..craft..with the propellent of its own and then refuel on Eve surface would be an easier task.

If needed, I'll post the craft file for the entire base, it's not a problem. I just seriously need to fuel up on Even surface in order for my plan to work. I can invent a new plan, I'm completely flexible with whatever the rules are.

Also, just saying, I read that entire thing earlier.

[Laie]

I would just land some fuel tanks unto Eve and then dock my spaceplane I mean, um, spacecraft to it.

That will be alright. I'm actually quite curious about that spaceplane plan of yours. I presume that it's not exactly an SSTO?

[2001kraft]

This is the preliminary outline of the spaceplane.

The basic plan is this:

Refuel Kerbin orbit

Refuel Eve orbit

Refuel Eve surface

Refuel Eve orbit

Re-entry Kerbin

This craft has 8k Delta V, but it's a big mystery whether it would or would not take off from Eve.

This is still a WIP, it's not even half way finished as it barely manages to lift itself up. As soon as I took off I realized that it's a no-go due to the fact it lacks some of the key features it should have, E.G. docking port, and right now I'm heavily modifying it.

It is entirely dependent on Kerbol power, but it can sustain itself on 2 RTG's for non-burn times.

Edited December 22, 2014 by 2001kraft

[Laie]

Oh vey. Now we've got a problem.

You may not know it, but your vessel uses the power of infiniglide: whenever a control surface has an angle of attack, it will create thrust. That means that each and every horizontally-mounted control surface (rudder/elevon) on your vessel will give you some free power even if you don't do anything to abuse it. A very lightweight vessel can reach orbital velocities that way, without any engines. Yours is too heavy for that, but at 10 tons the contribution from even a single control surface is still noticable; and you have at least ten.

I'm sorry to say that I would have to disqualify that vessel because of infinigliding.

If you want to learn more about Ion SSTOs, I suggest you have a look at http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85728-Ion-glider-collier-trophy!

[2001kraft]

You may not know it, but your vessel uses the power of infiniglide: whenever a control surface has an angle of attack, it will create thrust. That means that each and every horizontally-mounted control surface (rudder/elevon) on your vessel will give you some free power even if you don't do anything to abuse it. A very lightweight vessel can reach orbital velocities that way, without any engines. Yours is too heavy for that, but at 10 tons the contribution from even a single control surface is still noticable; and you have at least ten.

Oh God.

That means more RCS and no control surfaces, right?

Or, more SAS for that matter.

Edited December 23, 2014 by 2001kraft

[2001kraft]

Laie -

Will something like this be suitable for the challenge?

[Laie]

It would be alright.

However, I'm afraid that you totally underestimate the scope of what you're trying to do. Or, to put it more nicely: if you can make it work, you'll become a KSP hero the world over.

Again, have a look at Slashy's thread about ion-powered SSTOs. Read up on what kind of vessel it takes to reach Kerbin orbit; so far, an Eve SSTO is as elusive as it ever was.

[James_Eh]

Darnit. Trying to put the old computer through its paces for one last mission before the new computer gets here and can handle 1000 part ships.

Hit the wrong key. Debris everywhere. Great fun. (?!?!?) Upside, I've aborted into Kerbin's oceans about 30 times. So I'm fairly sure I have a good feel for the floatability of my lander...

[hazard-ish]

Okay, sorry it's a little late but here is my submission for the level one challenge.

Ion Gilly lander: 28,226 funds, 17 parts, 1.65 tonnes

Eve lander/rover: 102,117 funds, 469 parts, 39.06 tonnes

Complete rocket (including lifting stage) on launchpad: 603,198 funds, 600 parts, 928.27 tonnes

Regarding the part count and weight awaiting lift-off on Eve, the stats are the same as the eve lander/rover mentioned above. I launched from an altitude of 7409 metres.

I performed this in version 0.24.1.

I used no mods at all, everything in this mission was completely stock.

The rules say that I should provide information about how I found my landing site. I used the website 'Kerbal Maps' to find the highest point on Eve to launch from, landed in the rough area and kept on driving upward until the rest of the world was below me.

I also performed the mission without refuelling - every aspect of the challenge was on the launchpad at the start and I used only one launch. I also visited Gilly as a bonus .

Just in case my screenshots don't provide enough information or if anyone is simply interested, I had planned to do this mission before I saw this challenge and recorded my attempt as part of a stock career mode in version 0.24 where I landed and returned a kerbal from every planet and moon in the game - also completing the Jool 5 Challenge!

Videos are here:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Image gallery:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited January 1, 2015 by hazard-ish
I can never embed images properly...

[2001kraft]

Okay, sorry it's a little late but here is my submission for the level one challenge.

Ion Gilly lander: 28,226 funds, 17 parts, 1.65 tonnes

Eve lander/rover: 102,117 funds, 469 parts, 39.06 tonnes

Complete rocket (including lifting stage) on launchpad: 603,198 funds, 600 parts, 928.27 tonnes

Finally something different. Good job!

[Remkeau]

Soon:

This might be the first serial staged ascent vehicle I see in the thread, no?

I'll be finalizing trials and doing the main mission lander very soon. Stay tuned

The initial launcher size is as big as the launchpad though. This is due to the fact that it reaches orbit around Kerbin fully fueled, and has quite a hefty landing gear to keep her from toppling over. I just have to strap on a transfer tug and get her back in a legitimate way.

[Laie]

Okay, sorry it's a little late but here is my submission for the level one challenge.

Ion Gilly lander: 28,226 funds, 17 parts, 1.65 tonnes

Eve lander/rover: 102,117 funds, 469 parts, 39.06 tonnes

Complete rocket (including lifting stage) on launchpad: 603,198 funds, 600 parts, 928.27 tonnes

Wonderful! Combining the lander with a mobile launch platform is an excellent (if part-heavy) idea. But frankly, I like the crumple-zone landing on Kerbin even more.

Just in case my screenshots don't provide enough information

Oh no, they do! This is a wonderful submission of just the right amount of pictures, and nice ones too. Congratulations, you've completed the Eve Rocks Challenge!

- - - Updated - - -

This might be the first serial staged ascent vehicle I see in the thread, no?

Technically speaking, there's been some vertical staging before. But no Eve lifter in this challenge ever looked as rocket-like as yours. I'm looking forward to seeing the landing gear... that Kerbodyne engine can take a hard impact, but you didn't balance the whole thing on it's tail, did you?

[Overfloater]

Technically speaking, there's been some vertical staging before. But no Eve lifter in this challenge ever looked as rocket-like as yours. I'm looking forward to seeing the landing gear... that Kerbodyne engine can take a hard impact, but you didn't balance the whole thing on it's tail, did you?

These are good landing gear (the rockets aren't):

I also once tried testing a serial staged rocket, only I couldn't land it, it was long & floppy , much worse than Remkeau's!

Edited January 2, 2015 by Overfloater

[Ziv]

Hey, I'm back! Eve has biomes in 0.90 so I have new motivation to complete my huge surface explorer mission! YEEHAAAH!!!

[James_Eh]

OK, this time I didn't have to cheat. I flew to, landed on, took off from, and returned from Eve's oceans, and left behind two full orange tanks worth of fuel in an easily accessible orbit for future missions. HOO-YA!

Granted, the extra weight of the 5760 units of fuel and the associated oxidizer were neither planned for, nor required. Granted, the lifter could have been a bit smaller minus that weight. But still... Granted the whole lifter would have been a lot prettier without the two misshapen extra tanks tucked into the circle, but still...

This was designed as my swan song on my current computer. I plan on taking a break in KSP until I get the new monster, then going full on in 0.90. I kept the part count reasonable. I tried again and again until I found a semi-decent design for a splash-down lander that didn't capsize the moment it came to rest. I can't believe that it took me until 0.25 (and 2000 or 3000 hrs of game play) to embrace the loveliness of the structural fuselage part. I took Laie's advice and went for a semi-powered landing using just enough 'chutes to keep me vertical and slowish. Splashdown was optimal.

The most fun came when I accidentally decoupled the pontoons before lighting the jets to leave the ocean. What with all of the explosions going on, I was sure I would have to try again, but the pontoons (plus girders) popped back out of the sea just like an inflatable toy held deep underwater in the pool, and they all missed the ship, and the ship DIDN'T sink (completely). Off we went. I sincerely hope that I provided sufficient evidence of the ascent this time. Once I get the new machine, I want to try a less-vegetably designed vehicle...

Anyway, sorry that this entry is a bit on the brute force side. But, hey - we took a deep sea sample! We wanted to swim to the shore for a beach sample also, but given that land was completely hidden by the horizon, that plan got ditched promptly. On that note, I should mention that the only time I had to resort to using F9 was, of all things, when I completely MISSED THE OCEAN during my descent - by, like, 100 km. I'll say it again. MISSED THE OCEAN BY A LOT.

Lastly, I'll mention ladders. I agonized over the placement of the lander can vs the rest of the vessel. There were ladders pointing up and down from the can hatch, to ensure that Rongan could get back to the hatch. And what happened? The hatch was dead nuts on sea level. He stepped out and swam. That was a LOT of work for nothing...

(EDIT: 1: Oops I guess I should say what level I am competing for? I'd say 3. Is there a 3.1? Because I suspect I started from minus 10 metres... Also WRT the whatnots - using 25.0, only mod KER, did it in sandbox because I didn't want to screw up the other saves under my name or my son's. 2: A buddy reports that he sees a white stripe on the left of the pix from about #60 onwards. That would be an Imgur creation if that is the case and I can happily supply the unwhite pix to those who want them. Sorry!)

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Edited January 4, 2015 by James_Eh
(1) Add whatnots (2) white stripe

[Laie]

OK, this time

LOL @ "I had to use F9 exactly ONCE on this whole mission. And it was because I missed the ocean."

Congratulations, you completed the Eve Rocks Challenge on Level... erm... something, or other. Strictly speaking, level three would require surface samples from land & sea, but you know what? To hell with it. Between this and your previous attempt, you really earned your badge. I'll sort your entry under level 3.

Your design might be of interest to other people who (have to) care about part count. Could you give an approximate part count in LKO?

[James_Eh]

Your design might be of interest to other people who (have to) care about part count. Could you give an approximate part count in LKO?

Sure, here's the breakdown:

- 376 parts, 2922 Mg on pad

- 273 parts once all of the huge tanks had been staged off (in LKO). This was the vessel that made the trip to Eve. Nothing else was staged off until LEO. It started out at 488 Mg.

- the return ship was 25 parts

- the interplanetary drive was 72 parts in total, including the full fuel tanks left in orbit

- the lander was 176 parts, 225 Mg

- after the pontoons were blown off, 130 parts were left for the ascent

Thanks for the challenge!

[Sqwazare]

So I finally got there and back.

4 launches (lander, rover, return ship and fuel tanker) for a total cost of 4,536,158 in funds and 8,679,850 kg.

The lander on launch was 2,046,853 funds 3,679,850 kg

The refuel ship was 2,231168 in funds and 4,500,990 kg ( I wanted only one refuel launch)

The return ship was 53,127 funds and 114,315 kg

The rover was 205,010 funds and 370,820 kg

It took a couple of attempts on the landing, as I had tested landing the ship and the ladder before starting the actual mission only to discover that to reach the ladder I needed the right angle on the ground.

I used mech jeb for the deorbit burn as I had a small landing area I was targeting and wouldn't trust myself to hit it, however the landing burn was carried out manually. Unfortunately I see that I didn't take a picture of the craft after landing, which may be good as it was a little rough and broke off one of my boosters. Luckily I knew I had way more than necessary delta-v so it was only a minor annoyance.

My second ladder issue was on my rover, I hadn't though about how to get off the ladder and into the rover, luckily as it was remote I could just drive along with Jeb on the ladder. This was a painful way of doing things as he kept falling off and is was 12km of driving across the sea to get a soil sample. We made it eventually, and I see I also forgot to take a picture here (I was quite frustrated at this stage) then turned back to head home. Drive back 12km and we are ready to launch.

The ascent was fairly uneventful but I see I had one pair of separatrons triggered on the wrong stage, luckily this didn't cause a problem. I had 2000 m/s of delta V left on reaching orbit from my launch height of around 50m. So I am certain I could launch from sea level.

Rendezvoused with the return vessel, docked, transferred my samples, detached the lander can, waited for the transfer window and headed home. Left the LV-N engine in a solar orbit to avoid contamination and sorted myself out for landing. During this I noticed Engineer was giving me wrong numbers on my deltaV when I was using it twice as fast as expected, luckily I had enough to land close to home.

The gallery is below which should thoroughly document the mission, and I believe that this is good for level 3

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[redsh]

Attempted a minimalistic mission to upgrade to level 3. But forgot about biomes - in 0.90 one can land 15km from shoreline and still come to Sea biome. However actual land and sea still gives distinct samples (labeled identically, but both can be stored to pod simultaneously), so may be this counts. I've used same mods (MJ and Alarm Clock).

Lander is similar to my 2-seat one, scaled down to Mk1 pod and tweaked to launch from sea level (basically by cutting excess TWR). After circularizing only 18 m/s left in ascent stage (not counting RCS which gives additional 240 m/s though).

Two things didn't go well: 1. after parachutes fully deployed lander tilted (chutes were slightly above CoM, but maybe not enough?), but landed without permanent damage from first attempt (several legs broken). 2. Bill barely get back to pod because didn't want to grab pod's ladder (hate these ladder paths on big landers >_<)

Here is mission report.

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Craft file for rocket. Stats: 716k funds, 940 parts, 1300 tons, stock except MJ unit. I've used common launch vehicle from my Jool-5 mission which is capable of launching 170 tons to 1000 km LKO. Transfer stage is simply 36t LFO tank with 4 LV-Ns (giving 2000 m/s of dV).

Craft file for lander. Stats: 150k funds, 115 tons, 412 parts, stock (without landing equipment: 110 tons, 355 parts, payload mass ratio: 0.62%), dV: 10700/12295, min TWR: 1.5.

[2001kraft]

Decided to mention that what I'm doing is very, very possible

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/76153-Lightest-Eve-Lander?p=1131769&viewfull=1#post1131769

[Red Iron Crown]

Decided to mention that what I'm doing is very, very possible

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/76153-Lightest-Eve-Lander?p=1131769&viewfull=1#post1131769

That's a multi-stage design, with rockets for the upper stages. Not exactly an ion-powered SSTO, which is what your earlier pics looked like.

[2001kraft]

Not exactly an ion-powered SSTO, which is what your earlier pics looked like.

Despite that, it's actually 95% suitable for the challenge (bloody control surfaces!)

Besides that, I think it uses some kind of hax for electric charge - it can't be possible that this pity amount of solar panels is enough to feed so many freakin' ion engines. I have fusebox installed, and trust me it takes MUCH more than this amount of solar panels to even power 6-8 ions.

EDIT:

Laie, sorry for asking so many questions but I think it's gonna be the last one:

I have a rover on Eve dropped down earlier, to save TWR in the main craft.

If I hop into that rover and get a surface sample from that rover, than hop back into my lander and take off from the base I have there, will that count?

Or do I necessarily have to bring a rover/device/whatever with me?

Edited January 5, 2015 by 2001kraft
because questions!

[Laie]

Or do I necessarily have to bring a rover/device/whatever with me?

Cf. my own run, where the crew lands on to Eve seperately: they don't even see the Eve lifter until it's time to get back.

It's not necessary to put everything in a single vessel, or even the same launch window. The rover may be a remnant of a much earlier mission for all I care; but I don't believe in rovers just sitting around on Eve. I want to know how it got there.

BTW: solar panels deliver *much* more output on Eve, being closer to the sun. Like 2-3 times as much. I didn't check whether that vessel has enough power, but I'm by no means sure that it doesn't.

- - - Updated - - -

The gallery is below which should thoroughly document the mission, and I believe that this is good for level 3

I think it is; there's certainly no shortage of pictures. But I have a hard time making sense of it. I think the second launch was the tanker, then there's something with a rover on top. Could you please toss in a few annotations / comments, telling me which is which and what's going on? I don't doubt that the rover vessel can be launched from Kerbin, no proof required, but I went browsing back and forth to see whether it was previously part of another vessel. It's not necessary to come up with a text for every picture, but a few words here and there would help a lot.

- - - Updated - - -

Attempted a minimalistic mission to upgrade to level 3. [...] Lander is similar to my 2-seat one,

Congratulations, you've managed level-3.

No real surprises here; that carousel view is neat, however.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Laie

[2001kraft]

Cf. my own run, where the crew lands on to Eve seperately: they don't even see the Eve lifter until it's time to get back.

It's not necessary to put everything in a single vessel, or even the same launch window. The rover may be a remnant of a much earlier mission for all I care; but I don't believe in rovers just sitting around on Eve. I want to know how it got there.

BTW: solar panels deliver *much* more output on Eve, being closer to the sun. Like 2-3 times as much. I didn't check whether that vessel has enough power, but I'm by no means sure that it doesn't.

Alright, thanks Laie!

I'll post the mission soon, I just don't have the time to get around doing it.

Also, my current craft is only 7.7K DV, which is not enough ( I need about 9-10K probably need to redesign it completely )

I will also post an album with the base construction images

I'll try sorting out a launcher to make them go in the same location, etc.

Edited January 6, 2015 by 2001kraft
mega smiley face failure!