Life Support - Discussion and Comparison (updated 11/29/2019)

[tater]

Not disagreeing really, but it's funny to me that people would add LS for realism's sake, then remove it because it's realistic. End game I can see it as a substitute for what should exist, which is your astronauts able to do routine missions without supervision (resupply, etc).

That's where the "Tycoon" notion for KSP really breaks down as the player is not just manager, but has to do every single task himself.

[linuxgurugamer]

Not disagreeing really, but it's funny to me that people would add LS for realism's sake, then remove it because it's realistic. End game I can see it as a substitute for what should exist, which is your astronauts able to do routine missions without supervision (resupply, etc).

That's where the "Tycoon" notion for KSP really breaks down as the player is not just manager, but has to do every single task himself.

Well, personally, the regen stuff should be very heavy, and probably shouldn't be 100% efficient, especially in the beginning. Without getting too complicated, I can imagine and would enjoy the following:

1. A single type of "fuel", which would essentially bundle together everything needed; food, O2, H2O, etc.

2. Ability to carry this fuel (obviously) in some sort of tank/module

3. A series of recycle modules, starting at a low 25% efficiency and climbing to 100%. There should be a reason to sometimes use the lower efficiency modules, maybe because the more efficient ones are bigger, heavier and would require more electricity. Just like there are different size engines, there should be different size recycle modules

For me, from what I've read and seen, TACLS is just a bit too much bookkeeping/micromanaging for my tastes. But, it looks very challenging and I can see how some people would prefer the more complicated mods over a simpler one. I play the game for enjoyment, and for me, micromanaging is just a bit too much. Very much like my day job :-)

[Cdr_Zeta]

Hello,

I will be live streaming more goodies on Twitch this morning - Life Support 101.

Firts, I tried ECLSS - It probly works but unfortunately it crashed all my TACLIFE and the code is 'hardcoded'; meaning if you want to customize forget it; My own TACLIFE customizations are pretty good, I have an interesting and challenging Greenhouse, and as for CO2 'Scrubbers' I have yet to look into it.

I looked at a few of the TACLIFE recyclers etc; they need tweaking; my Greenhouse numbers need to be rechecked again I dont know what happened I have the rates set right and food is at a standstill; input rates for supplies are going okay...all this can be customized in module generator config files based on a standard resource rate; cant be done with ECLSS.

I would like to see some supplies on EVA's Kerbals so they dont have to carry a backpack; the Interstellar Life Support Plugin looks promising; looks like alot of work goin on there I am just worried about it being too complicated; as far as I know it is the only MOD doing this to at least add Food/Water to EVA's Kerbals.

I will go back and catchup on the posts here and edit the rest in later.

My biggest challenge is finding/generating enough CO2 to keep the plans alive (in my KSP Resource game) !

(A spoiler is in this post !)

I am probly gonna use Univ Storage (Kudos here) for my gas processing and minimal storage needs (I still have yet to liquify gas for some reason; maybe I solve it this morning); the radial gas storage is the best models I have seen; very realisitic and weather worn; very kool.

I tried to change up a few colors so I can color code my US gas processors; that needs a bit of touchup lol.

The Snack DLL looks like a kool idea; I am MODDING it up (!); check the thread over there to see what I did and hope to do with it (!):

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90841-0-90-Snacks!-Kerbal-simplified-life-support-v0-3-3

I also added and am sorting out the various Snack storage containers for it.

So....I took a gander at the posts...talk of end-game mechanics...beginings for new players...MODDED KSP/Stock KSP etc...

It being a matter of playstyle as well as creating a learning curve, Life Support Systems are also a subset of other Resource Management processes; Rocket Building; Fuel Creation (! Which I am now also incorporating: IE I now have a simple process to create MONOPROPELLANT !) (and yes I know you make anything from nothing in KSP; that aint how I roll...just take a look at my resources ( Live Stream this almost on a daily basis so there is no excuse)...Just to make food I am using 13 resources; granted that is a bit overboard, but every resource is a recyclable one; how KOOL is that !)

I just started with a product and worked backwards.

TACLIFE, or ThunderAerospace LS while nice, needed alot of tweaking to conform to real world rates; it has taken me almost a month to sort it all out (including resource detection and mining); but I got it done.

The problem with creating or combining into 1 resource, as I think was mentioned, is the MASS issue; that would all probly have to be hard-coded. The game seems to handle drymass/wetmass HOWEVER (!) when I get this all done it is a simple matter to adjust the densities in the Community Resources CFG to conform to real world values; for the most part I think this has already been done (much KUDOS here!).

It was my thought...if I send Kerbalnauts to Jool do I just strap on a crapload of TACLIFE (and be forced to bring them back !?) or give them resources and give them the option (?); the latter is SAFER and more practical; so I said why not go that route; then I ran into the problems of resources being created out of nowhere...I am anxious to get back into KSP and play 'MY' game haha !

The process of 'CREATING' in KSP, by doing up this Resource Management in KSP, gave 'Creating in KSP' a whole new meaning (!); if it wasnt for MODDERS this wouldnt happen.

The MODDERS and the BETA-Testers (US!) are what really make KSP, and KSP itself, like other games out there in the same type of 'MODDED' genre, are giving gaming a whole new meaning - Players can now create their own game suited to their playstyle.

As far as distribution for a semi-completed work, and other people creating Life Support MODS for others to use, I have never done that before.

It would be nice to share my CFG resource code conversions, but I am just now starting to test them. I also am setting a bar about 25% on all Life Support Systems; meaning not one resource can provide everything...IE 25% of food is actually recycled waste...some of that waste is produced by plant matter as well...I try to have overlaps in recyclable technologies and am keeping them down to a MAX of 4 (IE no more than 4 ways to produce 1 resource...Example: Water: 1) Waste Water, 2) Salt Water 3) Water Splitting (H20); 4) ICE 5) Distillation Scrubbers (? Getting the moisture off of cabin walls) )...

I never used TweakScale before til now...learning it may help to control MASS issues of the various products and their aesthetics on how they are stored !! (I also figured that out as well...I think !)

The KOOL thing is that I have ONE Resource problem !

For me...Life Support is a no-brainer...

(EDIT: Funny thing after almost a month of work I realize now that TACLIFE has a DLL; I thought they were just containers...; I may now be able to refine or leave some code as it is; the numbers for TACLIFE Karbal resource use seems fine though; I was a tad shocked when I just found a TACLIFE CFG file...)

Cmdr Zeta

Edited March 6, 2015 by Cdr_Zeta
addnedums ... typos ...

[Mapoko]

I have seen some pics with stations with greenhouses. Are those working with TAC?

[Jeez]

Ihibernation until the problem is fixed

I really like this idea and I hope modders will at least ponder over it. I think kerbals' death is a punishment too severe for any design flaws that player makes. It's the essence of KSP: if the rocket fails to get home from Eve, kerbals sit there patiently for as long as it takes for rescue party to arrive, but they don't die (unless some exposions are involved). Exploring shouldn't be scary - it's a game, it's intended to be fun.

Vorg's right on target. If Kerbals run out of oxygen, water, snacks, whatever, they start to perform poorly, make mistakes. If you don't fix things fast, they'd fall asleep and stop responing until rescue party gets them whatever they need. This would be a very mild version of LS that shouldn't scare away inexperience players.

[Mecripp]

What is the point of having a life support mod if you do have a punishment it is all a choice in what mod you want to use but IMO if, I'm going to use LS, I want a punishment and fall asleep get real thats like snacks IMO snacks is for kids and TAC is for Hardcore we have all kinds of choices to use.

[Motokid600]

What is the point of having a life support mod if you do have a punishment it is all a choice in what mod you want to use but IMO if, I'm going to use LS, I want a punishment and fall asleep get real thats like snacks IMO snacks is for kids and TAC is for Hardcore we have all kinds of choices to use.

The punishment is the death of your Kerbals and probably the end of your mission. What did you mean exactly?

[Mecripp]

They should die if, they run out that's the point of using a LS system IMO to make it more real if we send some one to mars there not just going to fall asleep if they run out of LS.

EDIT- was replying to this http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/108160-Life-Support-Discussion-and-Comparison?p=1812543&viewfull=1#post1812543

[Motokid600]

They should die if, they run out that's the point of using a LS system IMO to make it more real if we send some one to mars there not just going to fall asleep if they run out of LS.

EDIT- was replying to this http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/108160-Life-Support-Discussion-and-Comparison?p=1812543&viewfull=1#post1812543

Hm. Thats interesting actually. If a LS system was incorporated by Squad do the kerbals die when resources run out? Or.. "hibernate". Well in TAC LS ( the most difficult and complex of all the mods we can agree, yes? ) you have a window in the VAB that gives you the amount of time you have on each resource. The information is presented to you. Just like with deltaV. When your rocket cuts out early during a burn.. whos to blame? You had the information during the construction process. So if you run out of LS chances are you overlooked something.

Granted with TAC theres alot more to overlook then with dV. Closed LS systems i personally found very challenging to achieve. And in the end I still ponder whether its worth to take this giant, closed LS module with little LS resources. Or just a giant chunk of LS. However the challenge in building a closed LS system completely contradicts what i just said because of a lack of information. The TAC window in the VAB doesn’t count any sort of recycling functions. So a day of o2 that could last for a week with recyclers will still only show as a day of o2.

It takes actual testing in-game. And go figure testing cant be done on the ground because you constantly generate o2 So you actually have to send your LS module up into orbit to test it. Its hard to make a really efficient system. So lets say Squad incorporates a LS system to the extent of TAC. But gives you more information then TAC currently does to make efficient systems much easier to create. If thats the case. Kill the kerbals.

and make TAC stock!

.... and after typing all that I cant help, but faintly remember now being able to turn on recycler parts in the VAB.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Motokid600

[Mecripp]

And when you first install TAC you have some choices as to how hard it is, I think so if you do run out for some that just want to fall asleep lets say well maybe thats choice is for them but it's there.

[Jeez]

Introducing LS with severe punishment (death from suffocation, hunger) would make learning curve too steep. People will be afraid to experiment, hardly anyone would dare send interpanetary missions in fear to loose crew. Game would turn into Save-Load routine, which isn't much fun IMO.

I bet you can plan Duna missions very accurately, estimate time and fuel needed, etc. For you even very hardcore LS system wouldn't be much of a problem. But think about less experiences players who only managed few landings on Mun. People shouldn't be punished for trying new things.

[tater]

The penalty is set to difficulty setting. Easy is no LS, normal hits rep, hard kills kerbals. Going anywhere far without LS makes kerbals equal to robots.

[Jeez]

Meh, even rep penalties aren't nice. I would treat LS as some kind of Remote Tech - it doesn't hurt you to have a satellite without control on high orbit and you have a lot time to deal with a problem. You can keep your own pace.

[tseitsei]

The penalty is set to difficulty setting. Easy is no LS, normal hits rep, hard kills kerbals. Going anywhere far without LS makes kerbals equal to robots.

this is the best solution.

[DirtyFace83]

They should die if, they run out that's the point of using a LS system IMO to make it more real if we send some one to mars there not just going to fall asleep if they run out of LS.

Right, because..... if this doesn't happen, I don't really see how LS is any different to running out of Electric charge.

Sure, if you forgot to unpack your solar panels you can EVA a Kerbal, but if you forgot the panels, the ship is useless and the Kerbals need to be rescued. So... if you don't want your Kerbals to die without LS, I have to ask why you want a LS mod in the first place. Maybe that sounds rude or whatever, but I think it's a legitimate question.

[Fel]

Err, life support is a "for each his own" type deal; which is why I felt resource handling should be done outside of the code, allowing people to tweak with only notepad and a few batch files (or with some kind of module manager).

For me, when people start adding in silly things to make life support perpetual (given how cheap electric charge is) it makes me feel as if they missed the point. The idea isn't to play a game, but to play a simulator... to have your own versions of Apollo 13. Truthfully, it can be quite invigorating if you let it.

[michaelhester07]

I would have gotten into TAC life support except when I sent a 3 man capsule to the mun and one of the kerbals went EVA he ended up taking all of the oxygen,water,food with him and the ship was empty. Rare bug? Dunno. I hoped to use it though as life support is a realistic problem with space travel and a sufficient difficulty enhancement to kerbal space program. If squad were to incorporate it though there would have to be something like suspended animation to keep interplanetary manned ships from getting ridiculously big for the supplies they need to carry.

It can take up to 2 years from what i've experienced so far to get to Jool. This means 2 years worth of food, oxygen, and water to carry with me. This is without technology to save life support costs. What techs can do that:

Recycling systems:

Without recycling systems a space ship is an open loop system that doesn't have an input. A ship cannot gain mass easily. It can be done with micro particles but it would take too long. Anyway the open loop system is seen in the Apollo missions (i'm citing Apollo 13 movie for this info btw) where they dump urine. Open systems will dump waste into space. Recycling systems aim to close the loop and return waste into a usable form.

Heh ok here's what nasa does. I skimmed that and it looks like they don't quite recycle air. It's a fun read.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/146558main_RecyclingEDA%28final%29%204_10_06.pdf

The water is the big one. It's not feasible to transport water to a space station. It's impossible to transport it to a ship. What water is used must be recycled.

Farms or gardens would make a logical means to recycle food. Waste would be collected from the crew as they consume food and it can be used to fertilize the farms. Some processing may be needed on it but otherwise the plants in the farm would recycle the waste to produce new food. I demonstrated the use of farms in Civilian Population (which while isn't crew life support it is civilian life support). The farms also included recyclers and scrubbers which assumed that the technology existed to produce a 100% efficient reconstruction of usable resource.

Suspended Animation

This comes with its own real life challenges but let's say kerbals are easier to freeze and thaw due to their smaller size. Suspended animation systems reduce the strain on the ships resources. The live mass of the ship is included in the closed resource cycle. Kerbals are chemical reactions. They can't be shut down completely but they can be slowed. A ship going to Jupiter or even Mars is going to be spending a lot of time doing nothing. The crew doesn't need to be fully awake during this time.

Why not both?

Squad could provide open and closed resource systems like we already have done in mods. They can make orbital farms and other parts.

Suspended animation can be implemented such that when a crew member is placed into SA the member consumes a fraction of his usual resources. The member cannot do EVA and any trait he would give to the ship (like piloting it) would be removed during SA. When he's woken up he contributes to the ship and resource consumption again. At least one member or probe core would have to be available to wake up crew (one of HAL's roles on the Discovery in 2001).

I'll give TAC another go tonight.

[mhoram]

Just stumbled upon http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/124501

Looks like it would fit into this list.

[RoverDude]

heh, a bit of a necro, but would add in (since this was created before my mod existed) USI-LS

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/116790

Minimal resources, variable penalties, also plunking in separate tracking and penalties for stuffing Kerbals in close quarters (basically a habitation requirement). Plus built-in support with all of the USI goodies.

[seanth]

heh, a bit of a necro, but would add in (since this was created before my mod existed) USI-LS

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/116790

Minimal resources, variable penalties, also plunking in separate tracking and penalties for stuffing Kerbals in close quarters (basically a habitation requirement). Plus built-in support with all of the USI goodies.

Since we're digging up the dead, I'll pimp the BioMass ISRU mod.

Four difficulty levels of play: Classic (which ignores mass balance is meant just for casual play), Easy (same parts as classic but is mass-balaned even if the chemistry is wrong), Medium (a slightly nerfed Hard), and Hard (as close to reality as I could get it given the available modules)

Ability to convert waste into fuels

Ability to convert BioMass into fuels or food (Koylent)

5 different types of greenhouses (depending of play level difficulty. On hard you get an experimental 0.6125m, a 1.25m, a 2.5m, an advanced 2.5m with plants that actually grow, and a algae tank.

Compressors to store gasses (KethaneGas<-->Kethane (which is functionally the same as methane), oxygen<-->oxidizer, CO2<-->LqdCO2, hydrogen<-->monprop(yeah, I know monoprop should be ethylene oxide)

Ability to extract gasses from atmospheres for compression and use

Details on a (in process) wiki--included reaction formulae for those so inclined: https://github.com/VigilanteInc/BioMass/wiki/The-BioReactor

Edited September 25, 2015 by seanth

[DStaal]

@linuxgurugamer, since you pointed to this in a different thread, I thought I should mention that your description of USI-LS is wildly out of date.  (Not your fault really: It's still the same one RoverDude has in the first page of the USI-LS thread, which trips up more than a few newbies.)  I don't really have time to say anything detailed about it at the moment, but main points:

• Vets are no longer excluded from effects by default.
• Habitation is now a thing, and needs to be taken into consideration.
• Homesickness also - it's a variation on Habitation.
• There are more parts now.  (16 in just USI-LS, though most are just variants of storage tanks.)

Habitation/Homesickness definitely deserve a mention in any comparison, as I can't think of any other LS mod that has a similar mechanic that I'm aware of.  (Well, I haven't looked at Kerbalism.)

[linuxgurugamer]

On 1/4/2017 at 2:43 PM, DStaal said:

@linuxgurugamer, since you pointed to this in a different thread, I thought I should mention that your description of USI-LS is wildly out of date.  (Not your fault really: It's still the same one RoverDude has in the first page of the USI-LS thread, which trips up more than a few newbies.)  I don't really have time to say anything detailed about it at the moment, but main points:

• Vets are no longer excluded from effects by default.
• Habitation is now a thing, and needs to be taken into consideration.
• Homesickness also - it's a variation on Habitation.
• There are more parts now.  (16 in just USI-LS, though most are just variants of storage tanks.)

Habitation/Homesickness definitely deserve a mention in any comparison, as I can't think of any other LS mod that has a similar mechanic that I'm aware of.  (Well, I haven't looked at Kerbalism.)

Thanks, Ill get it updated

[Mecripp]

On 3/4/2015 at 8:16 PM, Vorg said:

I Don't have a problem with a LS mod that requires oxy, food and water and requires removal of CO and other waste. What I don't want is to for some reason not be able to get a supply ship to some remote base or something else go wrong and all the kerbals die. Better if these little aliens just go into some deep hibernation until the problem is fixed. If it's something really critical like air, then just require some way to wake them up, like needing to manually pop open the solar panel if you forget and run out of power.

LOL yes don't we all wish we had a reset in real life then there are some that like a cost for the fail mission just like in life

 

[Angelo Kerman]

3 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Thanks, Ill get it updated

Snacks is also under new management

I've made a bunch of revisions, refinements and improvements including a snack recycling option, snack containers (I just added a radial one), the ability to mod the mod's plugin, and added a KSPedia entry.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Angel-125

[linuxgurugamer]

25 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Snacks is also under new management

I've made a bunch of revisions, refinements and improvements including a snack recycling option, snack containers (I just added a radial one), the ability to mod the mod's plugin, and added a KSPedia entry.

I updated the link and the title, if you want to update the description, let me know what you want and I'll update it