Part count elimination

[Talavar]

Just a suggestion to make the batteries, etc "upgrade-able". Rather than having 24 batteries wrapped around the ship, and tons of solar panels.. You could simply pay extra to "upgrade" the item at the same cost of the initial item. Each upgrade would lift the capabilities of the part by 1x. hence a 1000 capacity battery would become a 2000 capacity battery, then upgrading it again would make it a 3000 capacity battery, etc.. Would cut down on part counts, and help out a lot when constructing bases that end up having crap-loads of parts in the end, which slow down calculations. I know batteries and the such are physics-less, but they still seem to have an impact on performance, regardless. Could work with solar panels, batteries, radiators, and thermo-electric generator.
Cheers. :) Edited November 26, 2015 by Talavar

[Octa]

[quote name='Talavar']Just a suggestion to make the batteries, etc "upgrade-able". Rather than having 24 batteries wrapped around the ship, and tons of solar panels.. You could simply pay extra to "upgrade" the item at the same cost of the initial item. Each upgrade would lift the capabilities of the part by 1x. hence a 1000 capacity battery would become a 2000 capacity battery, then upgrading it again would make it a 3000 capacity battery, etc.. Would cut down on part counts, and help out a lot when constructing bases that end up having crap-loads of parts in the end, which slow down calculations. I know batteries and the such are physics-less, but they still seem to have an impact on performance, regardless.
Cheers. :)[/QUOTE]

I don't like this idea, it'd be better to have other "heavy duty"-parts than to make the parts indistingishable by their looks. "Did he use a normal small battery or did he upgrade it?"


Also, scaling up leads to worse stats for the solar panels:

1 x Gigantor: 3000 funds, 0,3t, 24,4 electr./s, 81,33 electr./ton
70x small solar panel: 5250 funds, 0,35t, 24,5 electr./s, 70 electr./ton

almost twice as expensive, a bit heavier and overall less efficient for the same elecftrical output. Plus: You have the same electrical output in a much, MUCH smaller panel, which is absolutely unrealisitc.

Even in the current game, there are enough ways to work around a part limit. Less overengineering is a good start. You don't need battery capacity to keep an ISRU, science data transmission, lab, drills, lights and SAS running 24/7 for 10 years. usually, it's 1 night. :confused:

[EditorRUS]

[QUOTE]Just a suggestion to make the batteries, etc "upgrade-able". Rather than having 24 batteries wrapped around the ship, and tons of solar panels.. You could simply pay extra to "upgrade" the item at the same cost of the initial item. Each upgrade would lift the capabilities of the part by 1x. hence a 1000 capacity battery would become a 2000 capacity battery, then upgrading it again would make it a 3000 capacity battery, etc.. Would cut down on part counts, and help out a lot when constructing bases that end up having crap-loads of parts in the end, which slow down calculations. I know batteries and the such are physics-less, but they still seem to have an impact on performance, regardless. Could work with solar panels, batteries, radiators, and thermo-electric generator.[/QUOTE]
I think Devs should incorporate parts of TweakScale mod into real game. I honestly have no idea why should there be many different parts which are only different by size. What is even more ridiculous for me is that you need to research the hell out of science tree just to get slightly bigger fuel tank. Probably it's for balancing reasons, but hey, why not somehow balance sizing?

[Talavar]

[quote name='Octa']I don't like this idea, it'd be better to have other "heavy duty"-parts than to make the parts indistingishable by their looks. "Did he use a normal small battery or did he upgrade it?"


Also, scaling up leads to worse stats for the solar panels:

1 x Gigantor: 3000 funds, 0,3t, 24,4 electr./s, 81,33 electr./ton
70x small solar panel: 5250 funds, 0,35t, 24,5 electr./s, 70 electr./ton

almost twice as expensive, a bit heavier and overall less efficient for the same elecftrical output. Plus: You have the same electrical output in a much, MUCH smaller panel, which is absolutely unrealisitc.

Even in the current game, there are enough ways to work around a part limit. Less overengineering is a good start. You don't need battery capacity to keep an ISRU, science data transmission, lab, drills, lights and SAS running 24/7 for 10 years. usually, it's 1 night. :confused:[/QUOTE]

You're missing the point here I believe.. I can already attach 70 small solar panels and have the same cost/outcome as upgrading one of them 70 times.. As far as realism goes, Meh... if it was realistic I could slap panels all over it and never have lag... ever... Keep in mind, its a computer game, and we aren't using weather calculating computers.. lol

[quote name='EditorRUS']I think Devs should incorporate parts of TweakScale mod into real game. I honestly have no idea why should there be many different parts which are only different by size. What is even more ridiculous for me is that you need to research the hell out of science tree just to get slightly bigger fuel tank. Probably it's for balancing reasons, but hey, why not somehow balance sizing?[/QUOTE]

I like this idea. Upscaling would be a good solution. it would cut down on textures, plus solve some of the "too many parts" problem. Edited November 26, 2015 by Talavar

[Octa]

[quote name='Talavar']You're missing the point here I believe.. I can already attach 70 small solar panels and have the same cost/outcome as upgrading one of them 70 times.. As far as realism goes, Meh... if it was realistic I could slap panels all over it and never have lag... ever... Keep in mind, its a computer game, and we aren't using weather calculating computers.. lol
[/QUOTE]


I think i do get the point, you have three possibilities (assuming your method is implemented):
- add one gigantor (currently, the most efficient solution)
- add 70 small panels (same result, but overall less efficient and insane part count)
- upgrade solarpanels 70 times (same as before with only one part)

i know, it's hard to argue with realism in a game. I guess it's better to ask "is it intuitive?" instead of "is it realistic?". It's not realisitc at all to fly around with little green men. But the overall game mechanic kinda "feels right". And even in KSP, raising the capacity of solar panels or battery density by 100(!)% just by throwing funds at it, is far from intuitive. Yet allone 70000%. Heck, where would humanity be if science really works that way....

The thing with tweakscale: roughly, your panel would get 70x larger, just like tanks, batteries, so why again doing this instead of adding a single large part?

Now, for the times where you get out of the spheres which you can handle with one larger part, like you need 10 of the largest batteries, i suggest a welding feature: You select the stack of 10 batteries and weld them together. In career mode, this could double the part count of the welded stack reported in the VAB (so the part limit in the lower levels prevents you from welding all rockets together by default, you get 20/30 parts instead of 10/30 without welding), but in flight, this stack behaves as one inseparable part. Should only work with parts of the same kind, though.


Would this improve performance? If i pack 10 parts into one "container" part of the same size and assume the parts in it as static, rigid forces/wobble would only apply for this container part as a whole, not every singly part in it. So there'd be much less physics-calculations right?

Edit: TweakScale is a nice mod for those who want it, but somehow i don't want that mechanic in stock, as it's too abuseable. When hitting the part count limit, one could just scale up one tank instead of using 2 tanks. This takes out a bit of the design challenge (Lame gamplaywise, but anyway good for those whose PCs are not that fast so every part less is better.

I also don't like the current fuel tank situation (why do adapters have LF/O only, while tanks are available as LF/O, LF or Monopropellant?). But i hope there's a better solution than tweakscales or simply "You decide what goes in there". I like the simplicity of KSP: "Here's the parts, do what you want with them". I also hate the simplicity of KSP: "Darn, are there no big LF-Tanks for my nuke?" Edited November 26, 2015 by Octa

[Nuranon]

I like the idea of having the possibility to improve the stats of parts, allowing parts to be "upgraded" up to three times (perhaps costing x1.25, x2.5 and x7.5) increasing key stats like thrust of an 1st stage engine, or the ISP on jet or 2nd stage engine. But these improvements should be small (thrust increase of perhaps up to 30% and ISP increase of perhaps 10% on the 7.5 times more expensive upgrade) - and they should be shown at the model (which would be a ton of work).

These upgrades could close the gap between two existing parts...or a thrust increase of the 1st stage engine and ISP increase on the 3rd stage might allow you to use the same rocket with a slightly increased payload. An upgrade on jet cockpits and parts might make them more heat resistant (paint it black then). Even if there weren't upgrades for all parts, it would seriously screw with the balance of the game and redsigning existing (old) parts is currently more than enough work for Squad.

 

[n0xiety]

There is allready a mod for eliminating part count. What you do is after placing all the parts you merge them together to create 1 big part. So it looks cool and even tho it might contain 100 part it is only 1 part. There are still bugs with this mod and its not working with everything so i would like to see this as an official feature. Being able to weld smaller parts to a bigger one would save so much memory. Then again there won't be any physics calculations for those individual parts so some might not want this.

[panzer1b]

There are better ways to eliminate parts then this imo.  personally, i feel procedural parst would do the trick, stuff like fuel tanks that you pick the length, wings that you can shape how you want, ect.  This would actually cut down the part count, but well, its never gonna happen stock as squad is against anything procedural in general.  Personally, id die for procedural structural panels, ones that you can shape into other then a square, since well, id finally be able to make well armored good looking capital ships.

 

Anyways, im just hoping that U5 fixes (or at least helps) with the lag.  What is killing me right now is the inability to have 1000 parts loaded in the same spot without a total lagfest ensuing.  Its making my ability to do fleet vs fleet all within phys range impossible.  Lets hope U5 at least fixes some of this, and perhaps someday squad will reconsider procedural parts, at least structural panels and wings, and perhaps more like fuel tanks, batteries (so you pick how long they are), ect.