Captain Sierra

Let me know if it does the slight westward gravity burn on you. EDIT: I REALLY don't get this. Stock planes fly amazingly but my dismal rocket can't fly right. Every time I go into the gravity burn it won't hold course. The air will force it off to prograde. And I don't even have FAR in yet!

I tried to justify the new SAS before but after finally flying with it, wow. NO GOOD! It can't even keep this rocket straight vertical. Yes, I have power, yes, I have SAS equipped reaction wheels, yes, I have winglets, yes, I have extra torque on the lower stage. No, it won't hold vertical. It immediately drifts off to a few degrees westward gravity burn. I cut the test at 10k. If I'd let it go, it probably would have slowly and steadily gotten worse with altitude. Craft file is available on request.

let me go back in and send you the craft file. try it with the actual ship in question. EDIT: Craft file: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_BVD9gAcd6BTS1laDhPN0llLW8/

Thats exactly what it does. Look at my image last page. I can make that rocket to backflips at nauseating speeds with the torque and winglets but it can't even hold me vertical. It's using about 8% of what it has to use. Damnit Squad, make these things bite! WE NEED FORCE!

The joystick wasn't (and still isn't) plugged in. I deleted my old stock backup of KSP and redownloaded from the website. There is no way the settings isn't default.

I did a hard install, my settings.cfg was overwritten. It is slightly asymmetrical because of the sepatrons but if that was the problem, it would lean back towards me, instead it tries to drift into a westward gravity burn off the pad. SAS will stop it but it won't get me back to vertical. My joystick is not configured on my stock backup of KSP. I only use it on my expert version (which has Ferram, the only way I can fly) which is my least played. This was done on my newly updated stock backup KSP install.

That's good news but after screwing around on my updated stock backup, I'm not updating. The new SAS is just too lazy to hold even small rockets (with enough torque and winglets for me to put into backflips off the pad with ease) on any heading. As a guy who has flown with and without FAR and has flown jet flight sims (and combat flight sims), I will say FAR is damn close to a perfectly realistic flight model and as close as KSP may ever get. I can't fly without it and my joystick.

Majiir, does 7.4 still work in .20.2? I have, after playing with the new system, elected not to update my main KSP install (I play around with it over on stock backup). I need to know if I should update Kethane or not (right after I make a more complete map of Ike). I am in no risk of losing anything since I screwed up all 4 probes sent out to Jool.

Okay, I knew it was turned down. I was fully prepared for a less aggressive SAS but after finally getting my hands on it, wow. Squad, fix this! I had a rocket with winglets, reaction wheels for torque, power, and inline reaction system for both torque and SAS control. It was incapable of holding this little rocket to a heading. The air kept forcing it to prograde and nothing else. And my Ferram Aerospace is still broken, I shouldn't be getting that! Rocket in question: So, either tell me what I'm doing wrong, or kiss me goodbye as a tester. I am sticking with .20.2 on all my KSP installs other than stock backup. I want my SAS to bite, especially for the big payloads like station cores and the entire Lazarus project.

FAR and Mechjeb (last time I checked) were broken in .21 so running them may interfere with kethane. Correct me if I am wrong, is there a hotfix out for either yet? because I won't update till both of those are working.

Hmmm, the second option gives me an idea. Grapple the floor and pull a small drill rig down while using a second KAS which to hook to a floating surface platform that can dock with other stuff and serve as a pipeline. You did say I do need to edit the .cfg and make a duplicate which with a rediculous range to hit seabed though. Easy enough . . .

After some thinking (and a failed mission in which I lost 2 of 4 scouting probes; I have yet to attempt the burns on the other two, so I may lose them as well), I figure the best way to operate (assuming you use extraplanetary launch pads) is to set up a base on Lathe supported by a small orbital station. Then you'd set up a large orbital station around tylo. It's large gravity well makes for easy SoI captures and it being the 2rd of 5 moons makes it the ideal location for a large space station (just not so much ground operations). I'd keep a small mobile ground operation going on Vall because it is close and even at peak time, it can deliver to Lathe rather quickly if it needs it. The big land ops would be obviously on bop and pol. I personally lean towards pol because it's less inclined and easier to transfer to. Both would be good locations for large scale ground operations but I imagine my Pol operation would be bigger given it's easier to get to (IMO) but that could change if I get a big deposit under a flat spot on Bop. EDIT: What is a good way to access offshore kethane deposits on Lathe? I can't figure out how to do it. If it is any help, I read something about using KAS and I do have that.

In the future, try fine controls (caps lock by default). It barely kicks your ship at all (but I've never done anything that small). That aside, wow. RCS only FTW!

I think if there is any solution squad should take away from here, that's it. THere is one other problem I always see with SAS though. SAS applies force toward the target orientation until it overshoots and THEN it corrects. What if it corrected before reaching desired orientation so it stopped at the target orientation, not too unlike a human pilot. It could then be more aggressive and still not wobble stuff apart.

Have you launched anything heavy? SO far, the problem is the SAS isn't aggressive enough on ships that require a fair bit of force and basically need to be manhandled to an extent.

I do think it does need some more bite I mean now it is useless. The goal of SAS is that it holds an orientation so you can sit back for a moment but if it can't hold jack****, what's the point? Then you have to manually override it and you might as well just to full manual flight and that gets tedious after a while <insert_mechjeb> Oh wait, mechjeb is busted! Just like Ferram! Squad, cut R4m0n a day off so he can fix FAR for us!

That's what I just said. The SAS is being a lot gentler to prevent flipping out or wobble. The problem comes when you need it to really put some force down and use what you've given it. IT won't do it. It has been configured not to bite so it just isn't applying much (by not much I mean hardly any) of the force you've provided it.

Guys, the SAS systems have gotten a massive rollback on aggressiveness, mainly because it was burning through RCS fuel and snapping ships in half. But this means it doesn't bite like it used to. It can holld a heading (if enough control surfaces and/or torque) but it won't snap to a point and rigidly not move whether you fight it or not. For lack of a better description, the new SAS is lazier than yall are used to. This is great for preventing rotation in orbit but in atmosphere, it does need to be more aggressive with the initial application of force.

The EULA is standard legal crap that has to be said. If, God forbid, something happens and Squad cannot, or does not continue work on KSP, they have to cover their asses, which is about half of what an EULA is, a cover my ass document. With the support they have to continue and the financial position the finished game could put them in, they probably don't want to stop work on it. It's that simple. KSP will be around for a long time unless some unforseen force of nature does something absolutely horrible to Squad.

As someone who is avoiding updating for reasons other than the new SAS system (I am anxious to try it so I may update my stock backup install), I think the problem here is that, from what I've heard, the SAS controllers are not being aggressive and are too heavy (how heavy can a computer controller be?). Personally, I can't wait to try out my heavy rockets with additional torque from reaction wheels. That might solve my loss of control problems on things like my station core. But what I am hearing is that those ASAS controllers have now been configured to ease into to not create oscilation. This is great but according to people, it is not doing what it has to to hold headings. Gentle it should be but there ought to be a balance. Now to go update the stock backup and see how these things handle for me.

Here is a question, will Kethane 0.7.3 work on .21 or do I have to upgrade kethane? Fear not, I will do it, but I do want to do a bunch of other stuff first before all my keth probes are broken.

Kethane 0.7.4 is craft breaking and since all my stuff in orbit right now is kethane sats, my save is already good as broken. The only thing worth saving at this point is my kethane.cfg. I'll also have to do some work on a bunch of my modules or else I'll lose work on the Lazarus.

I'm not updating Kethane or my KSP yet. I am deep into several missions so I can't get save broken. Is your mod now craft breaking because .21 is save breaking or is that a side effect of all the changes?

How soon will mechjeb be fixed? And it's good to hear most of my stuff will work. FAR broken, damnit.

That's the plan to my understanding. Standard SAS will now be reaction wheels to add more torque in all 3 axes and ASAS will serve as the computer controler unit that tells them what to do when engaged.