theoneandonlyboiler

Well, I did admit that if you're into doing stuff for no other reason than having fun, there is no issue with the game. I however get my fun out of progressing through a game, and through using all it's features while doing so. When I see a game that let's me progress more efficiently by ignoring some of it's features, then I think that is a flaw in the design, at least as far as progress-based gameplay is concerned. So I'm only looking at it from the perspective of what a game should be like, and from that perspective I do believe KSP beeing flawed is an objective fact. Well I would argue that the game telling you to do something is not an incentive. Incentive to me means reason for dooing something out of my own initiative, not because the game commands me to do it. Yes, rovers are less effective, but not to a point where they become useless. And they also add variety to the gameplay (as in for once I get to drive around instead of flying) and offer a challenge: Building an effective rover and figure out how to bring it along for the mission. So there is still enough incentive to use them. But probes? Probe-missions are even easier than their manned counterpart, so no reason doing them for the challenge. And probe-missions play out more or less like manned missions, especially if you plan on getting them back to kerbin for maximum science efficiency. And you can't get the same amount of science with them that you could with a manned mission. However with a rover you can get the same amount as with biome hopping. It's just a less efficient way of doing it. Obviously. I expect a game to give me a reason to use all it's features, which in my eyes KSP doesn't in it's vanilla state. I'm not a creative person, and I don't do things just so I have done them. I don't invest hours in building a spacestation that doesn't serve a purpose. As I said previously, I never ever played creative mode in any game because I don't se the point in something like that. It's a game, it should have progress and goals, everything should have a purpose and there should be some reward for doing stuff. Otherwise it stops beeing a game and becomes a toy. So I guess it all boils down to what you expect or want from a game. Off course for some KSP may be perfect in it's current state, and for others it is not. We could probably spend the next few weeks arguing and would still not agree on anything. So I think it's best we leave it be. I would off course welcome and read a last reply to this post, but I will not reply to it. This is my last post in this thread as it looks to me that we indeed argue in circles

Of course theres nothing wrong with different playstyles. All I'm saying is that a game should give the player a reason to use all it's features. I should not need mods to play a game propper. Mods are a great way of expanding or altering a game, however they should nod be needed to make already existing features useful or worse, add features that should be in the vanilla game. I'm speaking of things like "Deadly Reentry", "TAC Lifesupport", "Station Science", "Kerbal Engineer Redux" and "Procedural Fairings". Those are all things that need to be in a game like this. I should not need to install mods to get basic realism and functionality into a game. Now I can see why there is nothing like "Remote Tech" in KSP, because that would make things really tedious and you can always asume that communications is taken care of by some other departement. But these other mods, well, the game just feels incomplete without them. Now if other players are happy with doing stuff just for the hell of it thats great for them. But it doesn't cover the fact that there is a flaw in the design of KSP. Which is that you can completely ignore 2/3 of the possibilities it offers. I Play many sandbox and open world games, but I've never seen one that offers so many great features without any incentive to use them. Now that might sound as if I don't like KSP too much. Believe when I say that quite the opposite is true. With the right mods and some tweaks this is easily one of the greatest games I've ever played. I mean I logged 84 hours over the last four weeks with this game, and some more looking for mods, posting in the forum and messing around with the data files. But that's exactly the reason why the lack of incentive to use all it's many great features and possibilities pains me so much, because I see so much unused potential. Well, I prefer using a rover to "biome hopping" any day. Just got to make sure my landing site is located close to several biomes. My rover goes up to 36m/s on the Mun depending on the terrain (and is great fun to drive). It doesn' take long to reach the individual biomes and get back to the landing site. And since it has 2 science jr. and 4 of every other Experiment on board it does get back some serious science from each trip The drawback of course is that it is really heavy. I can bring it along on the lander for use on mun and minmus, but for anything further away it needs ist own launch. But that might be fun too, having two payloads going to Duna and try to drop them on the same spot. I look forward to that

Well, I have found a fix for me, at least I think so. Now that I undestand the mechanics of the game I will start a new campaign in science mode. But this time I will play with only 10% science and a slightly tweaked tech tree as well as slightly tweaked science values and transmission effectiveness. And I will use TAC Life Support and probably Station Science. All aimed at making it really hard to get science without going to other planets and making early probe missions (before you have the tech to do manned return missions) a must.

I read it, I just didn't look up every mod mentioned on it I would say Rockets with Kerbals and rovers are the only useful things in KSP. Because you need science. And the fastest way to get science is by sending Kerbals. And once the necessary tech is available rovers in combination with a science lab on the lander can speed things up dramatically as it greatly reduces the need for multiple mission to the same planet/moon. Planes, spaceplanes and stations/bases on the other hand are indeed completely useless. Well, that depends I guess. On whether you're happy with doing things just for the hell of it. I for one expect the game to give me some benefit or reward for doing things, something that I can't get by other means or not as efficient. Spending hours buidling a space station? What do I get from it? Oh, I get to look at my creation and pad myself on the shoulder for this achievement! But does it help me progress through the game? No, it doesn't, hence it serves no purpose other than to suck up precious time. Now of course I will still build a space station at some point, and a Mun base probably. And I'm currently planing a hugely oversized Duna mission (needing about 5 heavy lift launches). Because I love building stuff and I want to try and do something that at least gives some feeling of realism (which a 1 Kerbal in a Mk1 pod to Duna mission does not) and a bigger challenge. But it would just be so much more fun doing it if you could get something back for your effort other than personal satifaction. I mean that's how games work, they give you (virtual) rewards for actions you perform. If there is no reward, the motivation suffers and you stop playing the game. And it wouldn't be so hard to do that. Just add in experiments that need a very long time to complete, so that you have to put a ship in orbit or on a planet for the time it takes to complete. And then make Kerbals suffer in some way from to long living in a small capsule and generally beeing in space for to long so that living modules and regular crew changes would become a necessity. Then rework the tech tree so that you cannot get enough science between Kerbin, Mun and Minmus to get manned missions to other planets. So you would have to send probes ahead to gather some science for unlocking the techs for manned flights. The possibilities are there, Squad just has to make use of them. - - - Updated - - - Let's say I most appreciate games that don't tell me what to do but that still require me to do certain things in order to progress. I never liked mission or campaign based games, but I also never ever play creative mode in games that have it. I guess KSP science mode pretty much is perfect for me in at its core. It doesn't tell me what to do but still requires me to do progressively complex missions in order to progress through the game. The problem here is that not all its cool features are needed in order for progress. Well, I usually do a mission for each biome, which means I get plenty of opportunity for dooing all the orbital stuff with my manned missions. No need to send an extra probe mission to do that. Well, that's career mode then, which I will never play. If science mode would introduce a budget or other restrictions that force me to slim down my missions to affordable levels I would welcome it. As long as I'm free to do my own missions I'm all for restrictions! Problem is, you don't need that science. You can get enough from Kerbin, Mun and Minmus. So I just wait for transfer windows before I go interplanetary. And by then I also have all the tech needed for that. Which is actually another problem of KSP, but I already talked about that.

Ok, didn't know that mod. Had a short look at it and the information indeed seems to be useful. However it is not vital (as in the game plays fine without that information). I definitely plan on using TAC once 1.0 comes around (didn't want to bother with it during my learning phase). But I will do this for realism, I don't see how it makes satellites and probes useful. I mean you know how long each mission will take and so you just have to pack enough supplies. And as for sending supplies ahead. Why not just take enough with you? I mean it's much less hassle to just send one larger ship than two smaller ones. It's the same reason why I don't see me sending a probe to get some science and then Kerbonauts to get the rest if I can get it all in one single mission. It's just wasted time.

So then you wait until you have the tech necessary to send kerballed craft. There is no need to go to other planets before you have the tech to go kerballed. There is enough science between Kerbin, the Mun and Minmus to at least almost completely unlock all techs. Which is actually another problem. Why should I even go to other planets? There is no need for doing so other than fullfilling contracts. And since I'm playing science mode I'm doing it solely for the challenge, but once you got there and back, the challenge is gone. Again, going to other planets should not be something you can choose to do or not, it should be a requirement if you want to progress beyond a certain point. I mean even a sandbox should give you reasons to do things. If you end up doing stuff just for the hell of it or if you have to force yourself to do essentially useless things for the sake of realism, then there is something wrong.

Satellites and probes unfortunately are completely useless no matter what mod you use. Why? Because they return much less science than manned missions do. I actually thought about installing remote tech for a while, until I realized that it will serve no purpose as I will never send a probe to any of the planets. All my missions so far have been manned, and all future missions will be too. Yes, manned missions require heavier ships, but then you build a bigger rocket. It would be really nice if Squad would come up with some incentive to build unmanned spacecraft. In the real world, the reason because we send probes instead of astronauts are restrictions in technology, knowledge, budget or time, neither of which are of any concern in KSP outside of the contracts in career mode. I think it’s a real shame, because I was looking forward to building probes and rovers and stuff and send them ahead of my manned flights. But then I realized that it would just suck up precious time and that I would progress much faster by always sending Kerbonauts. A good game should give you reason to use all its features. Now I’m not saying KSP is not a good game, I freaking love it despite every shortcoming it may have. But having all those possibilities for unmanned exploration there but no reason to use it unless the game tells you to do so through a contract (which by the way can be rejected by the player) is really a huge oversight in my eyes.

As announced, after my initial success with Mun and Minmus I tried to tackle Duna on the weekend. Well, all I managed to achieve during all that time and after countless complete failures (as in not even reaching Kerbin orbit) was a rocket that barely made it into orbit with the help of the transfer stage (you now, the one that should only be used for transfer). So the “lander†had to fire its engines during transfer because the transfer stage didn’t have enough fuel left after I had to use it for achieving orbit around Kerbin. Therefore the mission was reduced to an incredibly expensive Duna orbiting mission. And I had barely enough fuel left to make it back. I actually had to put the ship into an elliptical orbit with a periapsis within Kerbins atmosphere so the ship would gradually slow down each revolution and finally deorbit by itself. Man was that mission a failure (and the deorbiting was tedious as hell). But then I went to the wiki, read a few things about engine efficiency and rocket design and now I have a rocket that makes it into Kerbin orbit with the intended stage and with fuel to spare. Funny thing is, the rocket is now about 50% lighter but still has about the same payload. Funny because until now I was under the impression that if my rocket doesn’t make it into orbit the solution would be to add more fuel, more thrusters, bigger thrusters, more stages etc. Well, apparently not *g* I still don’t use any math or mods that help with construction though, because I think it’s much more fun (and more rewarding) just guestimating what is needed, test that stuff, watch it explode in hilarious ways and then go back to vehicle assembly and adjust it until it works.

Hi there! Well, I’ve known about Kerbal Space Program for a long time, but I only decided to buy it after version 1.0 was announced. The plan was to install 0.9, have a short look at it, try out a few things and get a feeling for the controls. You know, so when 1.0 arrives I would be able to dive right into it. Well, that didn’t quite work out as of now I have already played 34 hours and will probably play many more before 1.0 comes out. It’s just of these games that you can’t put aside once you started. Last Friday I intended to play until around 9pm and then watch a movie before going to bed around midnight, but when I quit KSP the clock was showing 5am the next day So far I’ve done dozens of orbiting missions around Kerbal, Mun and Minmus, landed on Mun four times and on Minmus twice. Well, and I guess I will do a few more Mun missions during the week to unlock some more techs and then have a shot at Duna on the weekend. Now, I should have known that I would not be able to just have a short look at it. See, I am absolutely passionate about everything about space and the exploration of it. I’ve spent hundreds of hours watching documentaries, reading books and articles about space and space exploration. I’m also a science fiction fan, having watched hundreds of movies and TV series and read dozens of novels. And you know what else I’m absolutely passionate about? Computer games! Now you do the math. What I really enjoy about KSP it that it is both fun and challenging. It's easy to learn the game, but hard to master it. And it has a really good difficulty curve where each new mission incorporates well known elements that are no problem by now, but also new challenges that need some serious figuring out and probably testing to get right. And there is also a high feeling of accomplishment when you get it right. When I first went to the Mun with a completely new and untested heavy rocket and made it there, had a perfect landing and got back to Kerbin with the last drop of fuel (meaning my guestimating about the fuel needed for the mission was absolutely spot on) I felt like the king of the world By now Mun landings are almost routine (having done 4 so far), but still every one of them feels great and I have made multiple screenshots of every single one because I was so damned proud seeing my lander standing there on the surface with Bob Kerman standing next to it grinning all over his face And of course it can be absolutely hilarious at times. Once I had a rocket that was too heavy for its first stage, so it didn’t lift and only sat there on the pad. I then thought **** it and hit stage 2 so at least I would see some pretty fireworks before I had to go back to redesign the rocket. As expected the whole thing exploded in an epic fireball, boosters flying of in all directions and the landing pat blew up too. But when the smoke cleared you know what was still there, lying on the destroyed pad? The capsule, with Bob Kerman in it, smiling like a child at christmas... So, fantastic game, even though it isn’t finished. But with the help of all these fantastic mods here on the forum the time until more features are added can be easely bridged. I will be playing this for hundreds of hours at the least and will be having a fantastic time planting Kerbal flags all over the system. And if time allows I will show up in some of the threads here as it seems to me that you have a really great community here cheers