Bishop149

I had a similar mission failure once. . . got most of the way to Jool with the objective of Laythe before realizing my craft was horribly flawed. . . the chute system tore it apart on deployment and 2 Kerbals were in a module with a obstructed docking hatch and had no way out. I aborted the mission before burning into Jool orbit and as luck would have it had enough DeltaV left (didn't need much) to arrange an intercept with Kerbin on the loop back to Sun Pe. But then had almost no DeltaV left at all. I solved it by areobraking from full Jool Pe speed in Kerbin's atmo! . . . It took a few goes to avoid either shooting back out with escape velocity, crashing horribly or killing the Kerbs with the excessive G's. Ended up in Kerbin orbit, rescues one Kerb with a rendezvous in orbit and did actually manage to land the other two trapped in the craft with the broken chute system by being VERY specific about chute deployment and cut order. So long story short: I would have aborted back to Kerbin before burning to Dres orbit . . . .

They do work exceptionally well. The main reason I think its silly is because if it worked that well then we'd be doing it in real life right? So I did some digging. The 2 SRB's used to lift the shuttle up most of the hard bit produce between them 24,000 KN of thrust The largest Jet engine ever made produces 514 kN So it would take 47ish very large jet engines to match up. . . which as a number isn't a million miles off what I have on my silly rocket. I'm stuggling to come up with a reason why they don't do it in real life now. . . inability to build MASSIVE jets (having 47 would be rather unwieldy)? Efficiency factor I am unaware off?

I just redesigned my heavy lifter to use these fancy things like asparagus staging I'd been hearing about: 7 Mainsails, lifts about 85 tons to orbit. All the small FLT-800 tanks are asparagus staged to the orange one they are attached too. Three of the 6 mainsail / orange tank bits are further asparagus staged to to the other 3. Final 3 are onion staged to the central tank / engine. I also made the below which can lift about a much using less than half the fuel. . . . Jet power baby!! Gets to 20km up before even igniting the rockets (and ditching all the jets). . . but its a bit silly.

Phase IV So refinement of the heavy lifter to get it to Laythe. My old heavy lifter was awful. . . a mass of HUGE fuel tanks lots of mainsails and 2 stages. HORRIBLY inefficient and rather unstable too, but hey it worked up to a point and served me well so I never changed it. This payload however really is too much for it so its time for a new one! My first attempt was interesting. . . I was rather enamored of the idea of Jets as a first stage, so wondered how far I could take it. . . . this far apparently: The thing is bat**** insane but it works. It gets to 19-20 km up before you really have to ditch the jets, which is best done early, one spark out in that lot and you have a tumbling fireball. The three mainsails then ignite and can carry it all the way to orbit (or very close): The Nuke powered interplanetary stage then kicks in (finishes circularizing if required) and begins the push to Jool. That craft is on its way and has completed its burn to give it a nice Jool intercept, but I'm a little worried the interplanetary stage is under-fueled . . . Hopefully with some good areobraking to minimise deltaV it will make it to Laythe. We shall see. So, interplanetary stage is a little weedy and jet powered rockets, whilst they work well are a little silly. So I thought I'd build a proper big rocket lifter. And after several stages of refinement this is what I got: 7 mainsails and staged to hell and back. The small tanks around the big orange ones asparagus staged, all the fuel is gone from those about 7.5k up, last ones being ditched below: Then I have 3 of the big tanks + mainsails further asparagus staged to the other three. Those need to go around 10km up: The last three big outer tanks are onion staged to the one in the middle, together these remaining 4 mainsails get Ap to 70-80km before I ditch the remaining 3 outer tanks and cruise to orbit on the remaining central: Then its on to Laythe, the interplantary stage has undergone some refinement, it carries more fuel and is staged to ditch about half the tanks engines when empty. . this is usually about 2/3 of the way through the Jool burn. The payload I am using here is a test, a big air droppable jet fuel tank designed to dock nicely with my fuel tanker rovers. It weighs about 19.4 units. The inter planetary stage weighs in the region of 65 units. So my heavy lifter can put ~85 units into Kerbin orbit and I hope get 20 odd units to Laythe orbit. Well see how it goes. I actually have 2 of these tanks on the way, the first version had no RCS. . . . which as I discovered on such a large craft makes controlling it a nightmare. Second on has RCS!

Phase III Well that turned out to be an awful statement. . . it was not easy. . . . at all. In fact for the SSTO it was a nightmare, the extra weight from the chutes made it too heavy to reach orbit . . . I went through many stages of refinement bulking it up and I got to the point of "I need a 3rd turbojet". . . now the original jet/rocket hybrid had 4 normal jet engines. . . the weight of 3 turbojets would approach equivalency . . . which made be question the whole idea of the SSTO being more weight efficient, and they sure as hell are more difficult to fly. So I went back to the jet/rocket and much more quickly refined it into the below: Which is almost as light as the SSTO was becoming and a WAY easier to fly, has enough chutes to land safely fully loaded with fuel. Its nicely staged to shed as much weight as possible on the way up as well, which I'm quite happy with. . . 1st stage separation ditches the cone with the landing legs on and exposes the rocket engine. The legs are not required more as soon as its off the ground, and covering the rocket like this also had the added advantage of solving the "rocket engines sometimes fall off on landing from chutes" problem. 2nd stage is the switch to rockets on an action group, it shuts down and ditches the jet engines but keeps the fuel tanks they are attached to, fires the rocket and closes all the air intakes. 3rd stage ditches the two former jet attached fuel tanks when they are empty . . this also gets shot of all weight associated with most of air intakes and chutes. Its then just the central fuel tank rocket and payload to orbit. The next stage is to get it into orbit attached to a nuclear powered tug to get it to Laythe. My current heavy lifter isn't up to the task. . . but its also very badly designed, the next phase will be refinement of the lifter. I always have the option launching separately and linking the Laythe return Jet/Rocket to the tug in orbit . . . . I've done orbital rendezvous' before but never docked before.

I know for a fact I haven't done anything half as mad as many people here. . . but I like the below. . . it is capable of getting almost anywhere in system (and back from most places. . . as long as it doesn't land!) and is TINY, an MkI cockpit with 3 ion engines, as much Xenon as I can cram on and 4 XL solar panels . . . its not fast however. I'm fond of the idea of a Kerbal being confined to a single chair (with no food obviously) for years at a time on interplanetary transits. Jet 1st stage rockets? Actually work bloody well. . . . not quite as weight efficient as a proper spaceplane but a damn sight easier to fly!

Those are part of the payload. This is the payload: Smallest effective interplanetary craft I can build, its range is crazy . . . . . in fact the entire thing is crazy. So I will try more wings and longer and report back!

Longer. . . hmmm honestly hadn't thought of that. Also as it is my Center of Lift is behind my Center of Mass but it is only by the bearest of margins behind it. I find if I move it back much more I can't lift the nose to get off the ground (ameliorated a bit by wheel positioning). . . . this may well fix that issue too. Definitely worth a go! Cheers

Unfortunately all my testing last night on the smaller versions was. . . at night. Here are some pictures of the planes that worked until I added the chutes, the latest versions have 8 RAM intakes instead of 6 and no radials, a few different lifting surfaces and the big tank is now half liquid fuel only . . oh and no split tail plane any more, those are bad!

As much as I obviously want to see it all polished, finished, fully featured and working beautifully I have to partially agree with the above. The amount of time I've spent playing this so far more than makes it worth the relatively small amount of money I paid.

And I'm not sure why and and looking for advice. I have built some that get to orbit, but I am starting to think its more by luck than good judgement. I started encountering problems when I took one that worked and added enough parachutes to drop it safely. About 7-8 Mk2-R's were required adding 1-1.2 units of mass. . . . . aaaaand my SSTO plane didn't come close to making orbit any more. So I bit the bullet and started looking for advice on what I was doing wrong. I have watched a fair few tutorial vids and the big difference between my SSTO's and those I see seems to be the difference in my planes angle of attack and the horizon indicated by the yellow prograde marker. In most of the vids I have seen the two align most of the time. . . pitch up and the prograde marker pitches up to follow it closely in pretty short order. Mine. . . doesn't. This is pretty typical for me: Pitched up by 20 degrees and only just about climbing. . . horizon at a few degrees above flat That picture is taken pretty low and slow as well, it tends to get a bit more aligned as I go faster and higher . . up to a point and then it get much worse again. By the time I engage rockets I can pitch up 45 / 60 degrees and still barely be climbing. . . which leads me to think I wasting a ton of rocket fuel doing not very much. I thought it may just be a case of not having enough lift. . . but I have stuck enough lifting surfaces on one of them to fly the bloody titanic and it makes no difference. Another issue is the switch to rockets. As soon as I switch to rockets (usually at around 28-30k up and 15-1700m/s over the ground) my speed starts to drop . . in order to maintain speed I have to ramp up throttle really high, which burns my fuel in short order leaving me well short of orbit. Again with all the vids I've seen it's a smooth transition at low throttle. Another big difference between my planes and most of the tutorial ones is that mine are bigger (2 Turbojets, 1 LVT-45, about 900-1000 units of liquid fuel and less oxidiser is pretty standard) . . . . they need to be bigger to lift my payload, I tried on a tiny stripped back version and it just didn't cut it, didn't really get fast enough on jets and rockets were way too weedy. Picture above is an intermediate version I tried. . . weedy rockets but two turbojets. . . . and yeah that one had annoying flame out = spin issues which I just couldn't manage. So any tips? I am starting to feel I'm missing something big here!

To the skies! Universe replacer makes a hell of a difference: Kerbin and the Mun in one shot:

As the above I also got an SSTO spaceplane to work for the first time: As a delivery system for my insanely minimal Interplanetary Module: I made a mission report over in that forum about the trials and tribulations of this whole idea "Return from Laythe" My latest SSTO design is rather pretty I feel:

Phase II Right so its still heavy. . . and a chutes system to drop it on Laythe was proving very difficult to cram on. So lets do this properly. Time to get an SSTO spaceplane up and running! I started with my standard aircraft and after some faffing with weight and lifting surfaces came up with a version that may work, it gets off the ground (take off speed is a bit high!), is stable in flight and is carrying a decent amount of rocket fuel. So lets try a flight! From what I read formula for SSTO is High and fast as possible on jets, switch to rocket to raise apoesis and circularise orbit. 23Km Up and at 1400 m/s (orbit), ship maxes out (with me flying!) at around 25km and 1700m/s (orbit) Orbit!! My first SSTO! With a whole 10 units of Oxidiser left . . . Here we see the MkII nearly at orbit, it replaced the Jet fuel only containers with some equivalent rocket fuel ones. . . quite a bit heavier but the extra fuel is nice: Interplanetary module separation and deployment And this is the MkIII, lower take off speed / better lift profile and with a "mobility system" to actually allow ground based Kerbals to board it. SSTO is a fair old bit lighter than the craft in Phase I although not as much lighter as I hoped. Current lifter should be able to get it to Laythe. . . it just need a chute system to bring it down now! Phase III will be development of the chute system to drop it (likely fairly easy) and the onwards to test on Laythe itself!

So I am well into the process of establishing a colony on Laythe, no actual Kerbal's there yet but an absolute heap of rovers, aircraft, refueling tankers, fuel depots etc etc. The base is the next thing to go. BUT it was always planned as a one-way trip for the guys I sent. . .the prospect of building a craft to return them always seemed quite daunting. But hell, I feel I need to give the little guys some way of getting back! So how much of a shoestring can I do it on? Operation Name : Return from Laythe Purpose: Design a craft capable of being delivered to Laythe and once there able to re-launch and return a Kerbal to Kerbin. Weight must be kept as low as possible due to the fact that my current launch systems suck a bit. Aims for initial test phase. 1) Design craft and get to Kerbin orbit, I figure if it can make Kerbin it will probably make Laythe. . although this assumtion may be flawed . . . won't know until I get to Laythe and try it 2) Once in orbit test minimal interplanetary module by examining it's DeltaV profiles when leaving Kerbins Sphere of influence. I guess the obvious way to get this lightly to orbit is an SSTO Spaceplane, but upon initial design phase I hadn't gotten the hang of those yet. Phase I Soooooo after much refinement I built an odd Jet / Rocket Hybrid: As you can see it sits on the launch pad supported by its own landing struts. It Flies! Off Jets and on to rockets Jet Stage separation Orbit Achieved! Now to test the interplanetary module. . . which is INCREDIBLY minimal! Separation: Interplanetary module ready! It took 3 orbits worth of burning on near Kerbin Periapsis side of the orbit (Ion engines are slow!) but eventually I arranged and escape from the Kerbin's Sphere of influence with the help of the Mun: Mun Flyby: Bill is in interplanetary space. . . . in an ion powered tin can! After some more Ion Burning, Bill arranges his return to Kerbin sphere of influence, once again with the help of the Mun Gratuitous Mun + Kerbin shot Successful re-entry and landing. . . . module isn't actually designed to land very intact. . .I couldn't squeeze decent landing legs on but I didn't try the VERY small ones. I may see if I can fit them on. So Phase is a success. . . a craft has been built that can get the interplanetary return module into orbit, the module itself is perfectly capable of inter-planetary flight and its DeltaV capacity seems impressive. Whole flight used up less than 30% of the Xenon it carried and total DeltaV changes for all the many burns must have been over 2000 m/s, maybe even 3000m/s. It should be more than capable of getting from Laythe to Kerbin intact. Problems: - Ion burns are very slow. . . to be accepted. I could maybe cram another engine on but it wouldn't help much. Sunlight out at Laythe will be much lower too. Drives will not run at 100% I'd guess. - Craft is still pretty heavy. . .probably too heavy for my current lifters - Craft lacks un-powered decent system to bring it down to Laythe, this will add a fair bit more weight and I really don't have much space on the craft to fit the chutes!

Over the last few days I have: a) Built a ship designed to both be as light as possible (to get it as a payload to Laythe) and once dropped capable of relaunching and returning a Kerbal from Laythe to Kerbin. I have a design I think will work although its a little heavy and the chute system to drop it on Laythe need some serious work. Currently it needs to totally straight up or chutes tear bits off the craft . . . also about 50% of the time even with successful chute deployment and decent rate of 6-7m/s the engine falls off on soft landing . . . .despite not even coming close to hitting the ground. Tried to get the hang of SSTO spaceplanes (as they will be lighter than the weird jet rocket hybrid I have made above) without much success. . . but I think I'm getting the idea now. . . they have to go really damn fast eh? With flames and everything!

A little list from me: Early on, I think my Minimus / Mun Tour. The first time I landed on the Mun I forgot / didn't know how to plant a flag, thus on the next mission, a Minimus landing and return, Jeb having finished up on Minimus decided to also land on the Mun on his way back. He got down, planted the flag and then headed safely back to Kerbin. I think it was so satisfying because it was early in the game (I didn't even know hoe to use maneuver nodes so was doing it all by "I think I need to thrust THIS way!"), was a spur of the moment idea and done using a craft not designed to do it. Later on my mission to land a rover on + probe in orbit around Gilly I remember being an absolute bitch and was very happy when I managed it. The first time I successfully deployed and flew an aircraft in another bodies atmosphere (which was Eve) was a good moment. I recently achieved my first orbital rendezvous and rescue of two Kerbals stranded in orbit, it was great to get the little guys back safely! Last night I returned a failed (manned) interplanetary craft into Kerbin orbit using areobraking only. It didn't have nearly enough DeltaV left to do it the "traditional" way! For the future I soon hope to establish a base / colony on Laythe. . . if I get the whole base I have planned down then that will be quite an achievement!

Once again, legal disclaimer, I don't actually know anything etc etc. I would have thought that as long as nothing ends up in the public domain (ie just between you and a private group), and no money changes hands then you are probably fine.

Today during testing on Kerbin I have expanded the problems that face my Laythe base that is currently on route. As well as having a "tear itself apart on parachute deployment" issue, it appears that like SteevyT above it also has a "Hatch obstructed" problem for the hitchhiker container. The base currently on route to Jool is therefore gonna have to become a flyby and I will try to return it to Kerbin Orbit. I can then rescue one of the kerbals aboard in orbit, the 2 with the obstructed hatch may have to take their chances with those chutes. . . .

This might be an appropriete place for this. Have noticed differences in surface render between people screenshots, a good example in the picture in the thread below for Laythe: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50017-Who-here-has-landed-a-usable-aircraft-on-Laythe/page3 Note the sand dunes in mellojoe's picture at the bottom, and the flat featureless terrain in the pic almost directly above it (which is what I have). I guess its could be an altitude thing, all the duney pictures are from higher up, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen them from any altitude. Also I have never seen any sticky up surface feature such as rocks etc on any body I have visited. . . its pretty much flat textures all round, I've seen screenies of Kerbals standing next to rocks. I am aware there are mods to change the planet / space textures (from a distance) but I thought the surface should be the same for everyone.

. . . and time! Ion burning to Jool Space must have taken hours!

Today Bob and Jeb took my newly designed manned rover out for a spin around KSP. Rather pleased with it, looks nice and works well. My first rover for moving Kerbals around . . . all the others to date have had no seats. Also built delivery system than can drop two of them at a time. . . two have joined the stack of stuff bound for Laythe.

Today I rescued Jeb and Bill from having been stranded on a very early attempt at a Space Station around Kerbin, they'd been up there for years with no way back. So I sent them a lander on my first serious attempt at an orbital rendezvous. . . having read some tutorials! It all went pretty well. . . aligned my orbits nicely and the closest intercept I got was 400m or so, RCS'ed to within 50m or so and matched speed as best I could. No docking . . . Jeb and Bill had to EVA it over which gave me something of a crash course in EVA controls. . . first time really doing that too! After a few attempts I got them both over, and burned down to a landing less than 10km from KSP! Jeb is available for missions again!

Not yet for me. . . but establishing an outpost on Laythe is my current goal. I have a heap of stuff on route to Laythe, currently all on the long loop out to Jool encounter: 3 Planes 1 Base (+ 3 Kerbals!) 2 Fuel Tanker rovers More planned . . . and the base might have a design flaw. It seemed to work fine in early tests on Kerbin but recent tests see it ripping itself apart on parachute deployment! I may need to send a redesigned replacement + a different landing craft to transfer the Kerbals to.

The only time I've actually really needed them is to recharge a solar / ion powered glider carrying 20-30k of electric power. Can't deploy them in flight though . . . I also use them on small ion probes, but they may well be very inefficient power / rate.