M700 Survey Scanner is quite overpowered

[Geschosskopf]

Right, that's why I thought that such scanning would be fine from KSC, or given for free. And why polar orbit? Such a vague scanning could work from other orbits, as long as you're not stationary.

I really like to put probes on orbits, but for good reasons, when I can see how it works, live the game. We are not in a text adventure game.

Well, I suppose the requirement for a polar orbit is that's where you need to put satellites to get full coverage. But OTOH, how often do you really want full coverage for mining purposes? If the purpose of the mine is to make fuel to use in space as opposed to on the ground, then once you get above about 30^ latitude the fuel required for inclination changes getting to and from the mine really starts killing you (unless gravity really isn't a concern). It's only if you need fuel on the ground at high latitudes that you care about ore outside the tropics. So a case could be made that while the overlay shows up "instantly", it could be tweaked to show only the part of the planet within your inclination's reach.

However, the way the orbital scanner works, in any given game, it might only show its so-called "hotspots" (meaning areas with more good biomes than bad biomes) only at high latitudes, even if some of the good biomes are more tropical. It all depends on how the planet's biomes are arranged and the random ore values for the biomes in that particular game. And if that's the case, the only way to see the "hotspots" would be from a highly inclined orbit. Thus, I'm cool with the requirement of a polar orbit. After all, there's a fair amount of wiggle room there, it doesn't have to be exactly 90^ inclination.

Besides, the only place where it's difficult to get into a polar orbit is Kerbin. Everywhere else, it's no harder than getting into an equatorial orbit.

[mikegarrison]

I think it's obvious that the stock system is a compromise. You don't get the scanning for free -- you have to carry that big scanner array into a polar orbit, which usually means at least some thought goes into making it a dedicated mission. But once you do that, you get instant credit for the scan. Then you still need to follow up with more detailed scanning (surface scanner and/or narrowband scanner).

I can see why some people may want to simulate real orbital scanning missions, and for them there are mods. But the stock system is not about that. It's about throwing a few (relatively simple) hoops up for you to jump through before you can go mine your ore.

[Tankman101]

It amuses me when people go off on rants where they claim nobody likes playing with "more realism" for added difficulty, and that the game should be entirely tailored to only their simplistic whims.

It amuses me when people think waiting adds difficulty.

[ArchGaden]

I like the instant scanning. Having to wait around in timewarp wouldn't make the scanning more challenging. If it had some really nifty eye candy, like Kethane's crazy hex grids, it might be more interesting for the first time or two, but needless timewarp gets old fast.

As an aside note, there really isn't much need to actually send up scanners at all. I always do it as a self imposed rule, because I like satellites, but it honestly doesn't matter much to me when I land a miner on the surface. I try and aim for rich deposits, but if I miss and land in a poor area, I still get some low ore %, which just means I'm mining in timewarp for a little longer to fill my tanks. *shrug*

What would be more interesting would be special rare ores that could be recovered and traded for funds or science. These ores could appear in small pockets requiring effective orbital scanning to locate an approximate location, effective ground scanning to pinpoint a precise location, and off course, a mobile mining rig or precise landing to grab that rare ore. Rare ores could be things like platinum, iridium, fossils, unique minerals, ect. This way, it would still be easy to get basic fuel/oxidizer anywhere you go, but by really focusing on exploration and data collection, you could locate valuable resources to give your career a boost. Mining iridium from asteroids or hunting evidence of life on Laythe would be fun.

[Paul Kingtiger]

I love the design decision to make it instance once you achieve the correct orbit.

Having a time requirement would require a more complex game mechanic and bring very little challenge (the need to accelerate time for a few seconds).

I think it's an excellent example of how game designers look at the cost of a design mechanic vs the benefit then allocate resources accordingly.

[Prepper-Jack]

It amuses me when people think waiting adds difficulty.

More than waiting is necessary to get a complete scan from a polar orbit. A number of posts have explained exactly that, including mine, which you (conveniently) failed to quote the rest of.

[Tankman101]

More than waiting is necessary to get a complete scan from a polar orbit. A number of posts have explained exactly that, including mine, which you (conveniently) failed to quote the rest of.

Because it isn't necessary.

Take into account factors such as orbits not picking up every sector (and many orbits never will)

Polar orbits at a certain altitude, already covered by the game.

and it turns out you need more fuel for the same task of mapping, and/or be very shrewd about the orbits you take.

So basically plan enough fuel for the orbit you want? Just like stock?

Also, factor in that you'll need to be within sight of the sun for the duration, or have a tremendous battery capacity, as resource scanning should be fairly power intensive.

A whole 5 seconds of gameplay is added, spamming batteries and solar panels. Not to mention planning a orbit that will stay in sight of the sun is absolutely trivial.

Throw in waste heat as a mechanism, and that too becomes problematic, solved by adding mass (radiators), or navigationally.

You don't even need to add radiators, solar panels are designed to be radiators. It just becomes a question of spamming (again).

Add in decaying orbits as a result of the two most influential bodies - and it gets even more involved.

N-Body physics or Exosphere modeling, neither of which have any chance so far of being in the game (From what I can tell at least)

At that point it's just putting a ship into orbit and waiting.

[Prepper-Jack]

Polar orbits at a certain altitude, already covered by the game.

Depends how narrow the scan is, and how close you can get to the planet or moon, does it not? Did Kethane scanning tell you the exact orbit you need to get a complete picture in so-and-so number of passes? Exactly where is this "covered" in the game when currently all you do is put something in any-old polar orbit and leave it there for a split second?

So basically plan enough fuel for the orbit you want? Just like stock?

And the extra expense and challenge in getting larger payloads to the target, assuming you need extra equipment and the additional fuel required. A skilled navigator (one who could determine the appropriate orbits) would need less resources.

A whole 5 seconds of gameplay is added, spamming batteries and solar panels. Not to mention planning a orbit that will stay in sight of the sun is absolutely trivial.

And staying in the full light of the sun, depending on where you are, might not be the wisest approach if heat is more realistically modeled (unless you have engineered your craft to cope with this).

You don't even need to add radiators, solar panels are designed to be radiators. It just becomes a question of spamming (again).

It's a bit more complex than that in the real world, of course..

N-Body physics or Exosphere modeling, neither of which have any chance so far of being in the game (From what I can tell at least)

And my point is that much of the more advanced physics, and issues that real spacefaring deals with, would be nice to cover in advanced difficulty levels. I can see the issues in implementing a full gravitational model (though 2 or 3 body isn't entirely unfeasible if applied to small objects like ships and asteroids). But, basic issues of life support (food and O2), waste heat (already somewhat implemented on nukes), satellite relay systems, and all the other stuff already mentioned could be added to hard mode. When everything is added in, even simple probe missions do get more complex, interesting, and difficult. Difficult in a more fun way than "do 10 times more of this mission to get the same reward" that we currently have now. Difficult in a way that you can be proud you accomplished it.

[Wheffle]

I keep hearing everyone talk about how "time warping isn't fun" or "you've added 5 seconds to gameplay, congrats". I don't really understand this because by the same logic a thousand parts of KSP could be stripped down or streamlined that would remove the need to time warp, "shove a couple of solar panels on" or any other number of apparently mundane and overly realistic tasks that drag gameplay down.

Electric charge just makes you slap on a few extra parts, why not get rid of it? Why is oxidizer a thing, why not just have one resource called fuel? We can pretend it's the right kind of fuel for a given craft. Why should I have to time warp at all? Maybe the game could just calculate my ship's delta-v and teleport me into the SOI of where I wanted to go. Waiting for launch windows is just time warping anyway, it's a waste. Why should I have to biome hop for science? Let's just build a lander that could theoretically cover lots of biomes, not do it, say we did and instantly get the science. Let's just remove night-time on Kerbin altogether because no one launches at night, and clicking "warp to morning" is not fun and "adds nothing to gameplay".

I know a lot of people don't care about the instant orbital survey, but whether you think a more realistic approach would just add 5 seconds of tedium or not, I can't shake the feeling that it just doesn't match with the rest of the game. One of these things is not like the other. It doesn't present a problem or task with multiple design solutions, it simply feels like a "go here and do this" quest from an MMO. Kill ten wolves, get into a polar orbit, and then I will give you the legendary Map of Oregoth which you seek.

Anyway, I already spoke my mind earlier I guess. I suppose it's unlikely that anyone will change their mind about it here.

And in case anyone is wondering, it's fairly simple to implement these types of scans into the stock overlay system. Because the resource scans use a lot of interpolation the maps generate almost instantly, just like stock overlays, and have none of that slow SCANsat map-building. Biome scans also work as map overlay.

Mmmmm looking good!

EDIT

And for the record, I disliked how kethane scanning worked. The lack of background scanning sucked, and the tiny sector it would scan at one time was painful. Like I said in my earlier post, I feel like a possibly unrealistically wide "spotlight" approach that revealed large areas at a time would add a huge sense of discovery without adding a lot of tedium (plus background scanning, obviously).

Edited May 28, 2015 by Wheffle

[davidpsummers]

I will note;

-Realism does matter, even to those who claim not to care about it. Otherwise one would have slapped together a game based on "space invader" physics and graphics and called it a day.

-Nobody wants to have to spend two weeks on full time research for every flight they do, and then have to spend days and days just watching it.

-Everyone thinks the balance should match what they like.

-Everyone thinks the game should be set up for them and the "others" can do things to play it differently. "Set it up may way, everyone else can [do this or that]." Where this or that is time warp, lets things run longer, don't exploit weakness, use infinite fuel, yada, yada, yada.

[brdavis]

I keep hearing everyone talk about how "time warping isn't fun" or "you've added 5 seconds to gameplay, congrats"… I can't shake the feeling that it just doesn't match with the rest of the game.

You mean the same way you have to have Kerbals actually spend game time in the science lab to accomplish a task, a game dynamic that was explicitly added by Squad… while people keep commenting on the purported fact that "time is free in KSP"? Yeah, i find that cognitive dissonance odd as well.

[ArchGaden]

You mean the same way you have to have Kerbals actually spend game time in the science lab to accomplish a task, a game dynamic that was explicitly added by Squad… while people keep commenting on the purported fact that "time is free in KSP"? Yeah, i find that cognitive dissonance odd as well.

With science lab, you can just pile in some data and go do other missions. You come back weeks later and collect data... no baby sitting required! That does lead in to a good question. Would this hypothetical stock real-time scanning require baby sitting in time warp? Or could you just setup the orbit and then go do other missions? Kethane could not scan while unfocused due to a limitation in how unfocused vessels were treated. I'd be okay with real time scanning IF I didn't have to sit around in timewarp to get the data. If I can setup the satellite, active scanning, then go do a dozen other missions while the data piles up, that would be fine. If I have to sit there and timewarp for weeks/years to scan a body, that would not be fine, I'd mod it out in a heartbeat.

One point I realize now, if we do go to real-time scanning, it would actually somewhat reduce the challenge involved. A polar orbit is required to get a full scan of a body, but in practice, you don't need all that data. You really only need the location of a handful of good sites, which can easily be accomplished with an orbit or two of any inclination, no polar orbit required. In fact, you're better served with an equatorial orbit revealing data from landing sites that will be most easily acquired by incoming vessels. This is how I dealt with Kethane's limitation. I'd never bother with polar orbits and baby sitting... I'd just warp for an orbit or two in whatever inclination I happened to arrive, and pick a few good sites from that data. I didn't need to adjust and spend fuel hitting a polar orbit at all. I don't think challenge fanatics have a leg to stand on here.

[Lord Crc]

If I can setup the satellite, active scanning, then go do a dozen other missions while the data piles up, that would be fine.

That's actually how I expected it to work, and was a bit surprised to find that it wasn't done like this. This would fit nicely with the rest of the game mechanics (science lab, launch windows etc).