Alternate start: Propeller planes -> Jets -> Rockets

[Tex]

So this was an idea I had a little bit ago, and I'm fairly certain that I'm not the first to think of it, but I couldn't find any threads on it.

My idea was basically to start out with a much more lifelike tech tree than even Better Than Starting Manned, one that would sort of follow real-world progression in aviation technology.

Kerbals would start out with basic aircraft parts, prop engines and biplane wings and the like. I actually think our new small landing gear, the fixed and steerable versions, almost reflect this sort of technology. After gaining a basic grasp on low-level flight and collecting Science, players would get access to jet propulsion, be able to break the sound barrier, and fly to the edge of space (maybe with some experimental plane rocket engines! X-15, anybody? ) and learn about how to handle craft at speeds and in low-drag situations. Then the player would be granted rocket technology and capsules to fly in space. Then the game would go on like normal.

Immediately, I DO see the problem with this being Kerbal Space Program, and acknowledge that the majority of users will want to get to space as soon as possible. But still, the idea is there.

What do you guys think? Maybe there could be a mod to rearrange the tree to make jets first, then unmanned tech, and THEN manned space tech?

[pellinor]

Here you are:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80977-WIP-KAP-Kerbin-s-Age-of-Pioneers-%28A-Career-Mode-Overhaul%29

No idea what the current status of this mod is, but it sound interesting.

[TothAval]

Immediately, I DO see the problem with this being Kerbal Space Program, and acknowledge that the majority of users will want to get to space as soon as possible. But still, the idea is there.

What do you guys think? Maybe there could be a mod to rearrange the tree to make jets first, then unmanned tech, and THEN manned space tech?

i could live with a solution where it is up to the player whether to start with planes or basic rockets(rockets have been around long before planes, so it is arguably possible to invent flight as a result

of rocket engineering). this could be achieved via basic plane parts or via selecting a gametyp with different techtrees, one focusing on planes, the other on rockets

[Tex]

Here you are:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80977-WIP-KAP-Kerbin-s-Age-of-Pioneers-%28A-Career-Mode-Overhaul%29

No idea what the current status of this mod is, but it sound interesting.

Ooh, looks interesting, but very out of date.

i could live with a solution where it is up to the player whether to start with planes or basic rockets(rockets have been around long before planes, so it is arguably possible to invent flight as a result

of rocket engineering). this could be achieved via basic plane parts or via selecting a gametyp with different techtrees, one focusing on planes, the other on rockets

Yup, I actually considered that too. The thing with that would be that the rockets from such a time period were uncontrolled and had no real use in scientific experiments, the only real use for them came after planes were already around when liquid-fuel engines were getting powerful.

[Pax Kerbana]

I agree.

But mostly because I want reciprocating engines.

...and differentials, power transmission units, also large tires with increased traction... and options for turbo/supercharging because rarefied atmosphere...

[Aanker]

I think it would then have to start at the point in time where rockets really started to "take off" in conjunction with early jets and the beginning of more advanced props... e.g. the Kerbal equivalent of the late 40s-early 50s. We would get turboprops and the equivalents for long range arctic exploration (more atmospheric aircraft contracts needed), simple jets for record breaking (more atmospheric aircraft contracts needed!), simple rockets for Me 163 Comet record flights/X-something suborbital flights and V2-like experiments and then all the associated wing and air intake parts. It would also require some oval fuselage sections to match the 'era' (something KSP doesn't actually show, even though the buildings clearly get more flashy).

Could be good. Then again, turbopropping to places could take a lot of time. The early jets would have a shorter range to balance out their thrust/speed advantages.

Advantages, however:

- quite a lot of parts to pick from, early game, thus enabling more creativity in how to approach the first few steps.

- new atmospheric flight engines. Everybody likes that.

- varied tasks and challenges with a few different possible approaches early on - that's kind of what KSP is about.

- early rockets.

- 'era' progression, reflecting how real space programs evolved from experimental military aviation to civilian rocketry.

If I could do modeling and animation, I would totally attempt to mod this into the game. But I am just a humble texturer...

I don't necessarily think biplanes would be a good starting point though because there wouldn't be a whole lot of different things you could do that would make for consistently fun and varied gameplay early on. And because the contract and science possibilities (due to range, speed, maximum altitude etc) would be even more limited if you're flying around in Sopwith Camels, you would probably blow through those early tiers so fast that they wouldn't offer much substance anyway.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Aanker

[juanml82]

- new atmospheric flight engines. Everybody likes that.

No, not really. First, this would go against the spirit and brand of the game. It's Kerbal Space Program. The OP is describing the prequel. Imagine the length of the career and how much grind it would have. As for atmospheric flight engines, as far as I'm concerned, an electric propeller for use in Duna and Eve plus a wing covered in solar panels to power it is enough for me, as far as additional atmospheric engines are concerned.

Mods could turn KSP into a sandbox flight simulator, and they already do to a point. But this isn't Kerbal Flight Simulator anymore that it isn't Kerbal Submarine Simulator or Kerbal Flagpole Simulator

[Aanker]

Then again, NASA didn't start out building Mercury. They were using stuff like B-52 bombers and later even the SR-71 for their own purposes. It seems to me, at least, as if atmospheric flight experimentation goes hand in hand with a space program, especially since as speed and performance gradually increase we approach the boundary of space and the line gets blurred.

It would also make for an overall nicer transition to spaceplanes than just 'boom! Space!'.

But I did also dedicated a (short) paragraph to the prospect of turning this into a mod. I think it would work fine as that. But I don't see the problem with pitching it as a stock suggestion, it's not exactly going to happen with the next hotfix really.

Also, I don't think it would be too grindy if you can use props, jets and early rocketry to carry out a variety of early missions... grinding to me implies performing the same task over and over again for some distant goal, here you would have multiple means of advancing in multiple areas.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Aanker

[mattinoz]

As much I'd love to explore Kerbal's history of flight I think it would be more than enough scope for a whole new game in it's own right.

Specially seeing they need to put a lot of work into Kerbal lots of new airports and cities, places to go, sights to see. Ground and runways would need to have texture and grip not just colour difference and crazy bumps in the middle of them. If there is going to be a corresponding career mode expansion then i think it would be a very different play style to KSP and maybe more like an old school airline/train tycoon game.

[Tex]

It's Kerbal Space Program. The OP is describing the prequel.

Yup, and also in the OP I acknowledged that, one of the major drawbacks to the idea.

[Aanker]

Would make for a good mod though.

[KSK]

I don't necessarily think biplanes would be a good starting point though because there wouldn't be a whole lot of different things you could do that would make for consistently fun and varied gameplay early on. And because the contract and science possibilities (due to range, speed, maximum altitude etc) would be even more limited if you're flying around in Sopwith Camels, you would probably blow through those early tiers so fast that they wouldn't offer much substance anyway.

I agree. There's not a great deal you can do with early planes in stock right now - and those 'early' planes are fairly advanced jets. Beginning with prop-planes would make the early game very dull, or as Aanker says, something you blow through quickly on the way to the current technological starting point.

It would be a fun mod to try though and I'd definitely be in favour of having more early game plane contracts in stock. Atmospheric planes are really fun to fly now, it would be nice to have more to do with them.

[tater]

While I am quite disinterested in this personally, I'd like to see an odd variant for career. It would require kerbals that could actually do things themselves… AI kerbals of a sort.

You could start the game with a large prop or jet as a stock item (clearly the ridiculous runway would need paving (or at least Marston mat)). That craft would have a few mounting points to hang craft off of. The player would design their X-1, X-15, whatever, and instead of having to launch from the runway, they can select to be carried aloft. They might set a target altitude and direction of flight, and the AI kerbals drive them there in the stock B-29ish thing (upgrade to a jet later?).

People now are forced to do X-plane things without a ride to high alt first.

[Tex]

Atmospheric planes are really fun to fly now, it would be nice to have more to do with them.

Definitely. Whenever I have moments in career games and need some extra science, I fly jets out and do some of those contracts to get crew and EVA reports on Kerbin. It's always fun to barnstorm the mountains on your way back

[Wjolcz]

I vote for tech tree splitting in two: half is atmospheric aircraft only and the other half is rockets. It's not that much of a time difference when the airplanes were flying and liquid fuel rockets were being used at the same time. In Kerbal universe both technologies could start in the same era. Neil touched the silver soil only (about) 60 years after the first powered flight performed by Wrights, right?

Also props. Not really a fan of combustion engines. I can easily imagine a world where batteries are being much more common than petrol. Just imagine world full of people thinking the way Nikola Tesla did.

EDIT: Yep, just checked it:

Wright brothers - 1903

Goddard's liquid rocket - 1926

So that makes it 23 years apart and even less than 60 years (obviously).

E2: Not mentioning solid rockets, because it's something that has been used since like ancient China.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Veeltch