Squad, please sit down and figure out Contracts + Other "needed" things still missing from KSP.

[LadyAthena]

They really need to be overhauled to a point. Not necessarily what they are, but how it's decided what show.

I had a friend try playing it, got a contract to Land on the Mun, he barely did it and got back (was more a fluke that he did actually), and then he got a contract to do 3 temperature burns on Jool? O.o; 2 for Duna, and another for one of Jools moons. x.x;;;

Shouldn't these contracts go in order and gradually get you into the game based off of Delta V requirements, and what you've successfully accomplished? You nkow.. stepping stones.. gradually upwards... yea!

Right now it seems to be ok, 1 -good job you launched a rocket!-, 2 - Great you exited the atmosphere!- , 3 -nice! you landed on the Mun!- , 4-puts you in a catapult kerbal style- Fire! -Go to another atmosphere planet, even though you've not even learned how to exit Kerbins SOI, let alone rendevous with another planet, land on it, then take off, and come BACK! Yea! You can do it!"

Things which are missing, or need to be added to fill in the -gaps- of difficulty. IMO.

1) Add a 1 time contract to leave Kerbins SOI and return to Kerbin before unlocking contracts to go to other planets.

2) Split up the "Explore planet" 1 time contracts into smaller individual parts.

3) Make contracts calculated off of what you've done, and total Delta V estimated to be required to accomplish the contract. Example: A Contract to go to Gilly would show far earlier than a contract to land on EVE due to Delta V requirements, and contracts to go to other planets wouldn't show until after you've accomplished contracts to go to Minmus and the Mun, and SOI. (Or if you've by passed those and went to another planet yourself already, then they'd unlock based off of the Delta V of the planet you successfully got too).

4) Add more contracts for Planes.. like seriously please...

5) Add contracts for space planes specifically... please...

6) Add Contracts for more "station" style setups.. like "Position a new Refueling Station above Jool, that can hold x amount of x fuel as close to the orbit as possible, or "Add a new science base on the Mun with at least 1 science pod and yada yada yada with at least 1 extra docking port"

7) Add more contracts that deal with parts already in space. (Using the above Jool station for example) "Add 3 more x Fuel to the Jool Station with at least 1 extra Docking port"

8) (If possible) Add Contracts that relate to situations currently player made.. (Like you crashed a ship on the Mun...again). "Rescue x Kerbal from x" Which, your target is the poor kerbal from the previous mission. (Ok, so for these maybe you shouldn't get a "pay out" since it's your own fault for them being there, but a boost to your standings would make sense, since you are proving that even if you do mess up you can back up your mistakes)

9) Change "for 10 seconds" thing, because it doesn't make sense.. anyone can put a random rocket into an unstable orbit for 10 seconds.. (even if the contract says "Stable orbit for 10 seconds" it can be in an unstable orbit and still count for 10 seconds). Instead increase these too several days or hours depending on difficulty.

10) Put Satelite in orbit Contracts, give us ticking science... I know there are mods which make satelites and what not give science, and yada yada but in the stock game there is ZERO point to them except to waste space, time, money, and precious RAM to the 3.5k cap KSP has... If you complete a "Satelite in orbit" Contract, give us a lump sum of science + a ticking amount of science per day for x days depending on difficulty and location of the "satelite".

Or you can make it more interesting.. "Science" Satelites in orbit will give a ticking science for x days for x amount depending on difficulty and location. "Communications Satelite" will give you a bonus multiplier to your next accepted contract, and once complete will give you that bonus. Example: You put a " Communications Satelite" in orbit around the Mun, your next Contract you take gives you a x2 to your earnings and science for that 1 contract once completed if around the Mun.

11) Keep up the good work!

Additional suggestions:

1) Add a Delta V chart for your planes and rockets.. I know there are 2 great mods for this, but it really should be in the stock game for those who don't like to use mods. It really is a necessity not a luxury.

2) Possibly put "Recommended Delta V" on contracts? List the "Recommended" total Delta V: For instance.. A contract to go to the Mun, land, and come back, would have a Delta V "Recommended Requirement" that would safely get you there and back. (Extremely helpful for beginners). (This IMO is really required for Career Mode. You don't have the luxury as a new player to waste time building 20 rockets to figure out the amount of engines, thrust, etc. you need to go to each planet.)

3) Make the "Recommended Delta V" unlock as you upgrade the Tracking Station (but flawed, could be anywhere between 1000 to little or 1000 to much randomly). Make the "Recommended Delta V" Help Tip on contracts more accurate for each planet depending on if you've sent a satellite there. (Also another way to make Satellites actually worth launching)

4) A tutorial on Delta V for the beginners, and even more advanced players who still really have no clue what it is or how it works, and why they are only torturing themselves for not knowing.

Edited May 3, 2015 by LadyAthena

[MKI]

The whole base contracts of Delta-V requirements is flawed.

Getting say a satillite over Jool requires the same Delta-V as getting a station over it. But the two payloads require completely different launch and transfer systems.

Contracts for planes can be done via rockets, and vice versa. You also should consider what defines either and how the game pretty much doesn't care what defines what. So asking for "Plane Missions" is missing the part of what would be a plane mission? Atmospheric recon is as good as its going to get I feel without filling up the contract window with low return,easy, plane only mission that I personally will never do. (I already hardly do them)

I actually like the idea of build-upon missions. Where one contract will lead to another and are linked. This is something I feel the Dev's should add as it would really expand on the current contracts and make it a point to leave your stations/bases in orbit to further them via contracts and get paid for it.

Idk about giving science over time for sat missions. To tell you the truth they are extremely cheap and easy. Unless your doing 50+ of these things and not cleaning them up your RAM shouldn't be hurt to bad by a few tiny satellites.

The Engineer report was suppose to include Delta-V but I don't believe that made it but will be added later. And recommending Delta-V for missions is going to far I feel. Beginners will learn, and it adds to the heart pounding question in game do I have enough fuel?

[samstarman5]

Tutorials and Scenarios are getting overhauled to allow for all the changes that came with 1.0, so a tutorial on delta-V is a good idea. You should actually throw that into the Suggestions forum.

I can say I haven't seen any weird-timed contracts pop up, yet, myself. They have tended to build up logically(as logical as kerbals can be). It should be stated that you do not have to take on any contracts you feel are out of your current boundaries, as they are bound to be offered again later on if your reputation allows for it. Something to take into mind for the time being until contracts are touched up on, as they are bound to be.

[SpacedCowboy]

Wow, could you go to Mexico City and see if they'd let you punch in? Many excellent suggestions there. +1

[LadyAthena]

The whole base contracts of Delta-V requirements is flawed.

Getting say a satillite over Jool requires the same Delta-V as getting a station over it. But the two payloads require completely different launch and transfer systems.

Contracts for planes can be done via rockets, and vice versa. You also should consider what defines either and how the game pretty much doesn't care what defines what. So asking for "Plane Missions" is missing the part of what would be a plane mission? Atmospheric recon is as good as its going to get I feel without filling up the contract window with low return,easy, plane only mission that I personally will never do. (I already hardly do them)

I actually like the idea of build-upon missions. Where one contract will lead to another and are linked. This is something I feel the Dev's should add as it would really expand on the current contracts and make it a point to leave your stations/bases in orbit to further them via contracts and get paid for it.

Idk about giving science over time for sat missions. To tell you the truth they are extremely cheap and easy. Unless your doing 50+ of these things and not cleaning them up your RAM shouldn't be hurt to bad by a few tiny satellites.

The Engineer report was suppose to include Delta-V but I don't believe that made it but will be added later. And recommending Delta-V for missions is going to far I feel. Beginners will learn, and it adds to the heart pounding question in game do I have enough fuel?

I have to beg to differ on a few points.

"Getting say a satillite over Jool requires the same Delta-V as getting a station over it. But the two payloads require completely different launch and transfer systems."

That's all about learning your payload, and learning how to build rockets. That's the difficult part. Just knowing what Delta V you'll "roughly" need (considering you've even unlocked the requirements to know it via upgrades), isn't going to make you instantly be able to build perfect rockets.. far from the contrary...

"Contracts for planes can be done via rockets, and vice versa. You also should consider what defines either and how the game pretty much doesn't care what defines what. So asking for "Plane Missions" is missing the part of what would be a plane mission? Atmospheric recon is as good as its going to get I feel without filling up the contract window with low return,easy, plane only mission that I personally will never do. (I already hardly do them)"

Atmospheric missions that stay within the atmosphere would be a "plane" mission. Sure you COULD use rockets.. Kerbals do strange things, but for those who do want more atmospheric missions for planes can play it legit and build a plane to accomplish the mission and not a rocket. Just because someone can "cheat the system" By using rockets for everything doesn't mean there shouldn't still be things there perfectly capable of being completed with just plane parts.

As for "Space planes". Missions like transferring kerbals in and out of previously stationed stations, or ships in orbit of kerbin would be a space plane mission. Since that's what most SSTO's and the like do.

"Idk about giving science over time for sat missions. To tell you the truth they are extremely cheap and easy. Unless your doing 50+ of these things and not cleaning them up your RAM shouldn't be hurt to bad by a few tiny satellites."

That's really not the point I was making. (With mods btw, 15 un used satelites can be a bother in orbit of Kerbin, especially if you're like me and don't like to click the terminate button on anything) The point was, there should be a reason for it.. Not just "grind this contract for lawls".

"The Engineer report was suppose to include Delta-V but I don't believe that made it but will be added later. And recommending Delta-V for missions is going to far I feel."

Recommending Delta V as I said, would be a progression thing. First you'd need to unlock the highest tier of Tracking Station, then ontop of that to get the Delta V Requirements that may or may not end up not being enough, you'll need to send satelites there yourself to knock that number closer to the actual range.

I understand what you mean by "Oh god do I have enough fuel?" But you have to remember not having enough Delta V is actually low on the reasons of why most people get that "oh god no" moment. I know how much Delta V it takes to get to most planets, but I still mess up my burns, burn too long, and or simply do something foolish while flying that wastes my Delta V and I often get into a "oh crap" situation for fuel.

On top of that, again.. you still need to build your rockets right and learn how too, screwing up your rocket in how you built it could still net you the "not enough fuel" problem. Consider this: You know it takes 5,000 Dv to get to Duna, land and return (yea I know that's hella off, but just for an example), You make a ship with 5,100 Dv, and think you're golden. Now comes to landing on Duna, you realize you still have half a tank under your landing gear, and you're gonna need to jettison it to land, but that now knocks you UNDER the required Dv to get back home.... You gone dun messed up....

Another example that has happened to me countless times before is using under powered engines for a situation. I remember many times trying to exist the SOI of Duna, Jool, or other larger planets, I was using inferior engines for the gravity well and being too close in orbit.. I wasted to much extra Dv required and didn't have the fuel to get back.

There are countless mistakes beginners will make even knowing the rough estimation of dv required.

Knowing the Delta v is anything but a "cheat sheet" Since there are countless things that can go wrong still....

Edited May 3, 2015 by LadyAthena

[WOODY01]

I like your suggestions, I do not agree with the more plane contracts, all of the surveys on Kerbin I have done with planes and some of those planes needed a rocket motor to complete the contracts. I also mostly test parts with planes since I find them easier to control in the atmosphere and have an easier time getting to the correct altitude and speed. I do not do most test contracts unless it fits in with something I am already doing and the test is out of the atmosphere.

I would add that contracts should be limited by biome, If you already have a couple of plant a flag on x then you should not get another one. I think more biome specific contracts would be great, would love if they were generated regarding the places you have not been to yet. Like if you have not been to the poles on Kerbin it would generate a contract to go there.

I also would actually like contracts for space stations and bases to be more like the explore contracts which have several steps involved with them to complete. Right now it is 5 kerbals, generate power,, have a docking port and an antenna. They could make the future requirements include generating more power add a lab, add science part or other similar parts. You would get rewarded after completing each stage of the contract.

I also think there should be a limited number of contracts along with an automatic income based on reputation. By limited number of contracts I mean once you have several sats in orbit around Kerbin you will not get more contracts to put a sat in orbit around Kerbin. If you completed several land on the Mun contracts you will no longer get them.

This would mean they need to boost contract rewards but also lessen grinding the same contracts in the same SOI or biome, if you complete them all the monthly income based on rep would cover funding.

Limiting contracts would also motivate players to expand beyond just the Mun and Mimus since once those contracts are complete you need to move on to other places.

Having a monthly income based on rep also gives a player a little more flexabilty in how they want to play, instead of funding their program soley on completing contracts. I just say this because I have held up missions waiting for the contract to appear or had to grind some contracts to get the funds to do what I wanted. A monthly income will lessen this and the player progresses it would allow them to do more of what they want and not need to worry about completeing contracts as much.

[LadyAthena]

I like your suggestions, I do not agree with the more plane contracts, all of the surveys on Kerbin I have done with planes and some of those planes needed a rocket motor to complete the contracts. I also mostly test parts with planes since I find them easier to control in the atmosphere and have an easier time getting to the correct altitude and speed. I do not do most test contracts unless it fits in with something I am already doing and the test is out of the atmosphere.

I would add that contracts should be limited by biome, If you already have a couple of plant a flag on x then you should not get another one. I think more biome specific contracts would be great, would love if they were generated regarding the places you have not been to yet. Like if you have not been to the poles on Kerbin it would generate a contract to go there.

I also would actually like contracts for space stations and bases to be more like the explore contracts which have several steps involved with them to complete. Right now it is 5 kerbals, generate power,, have a docking port and an antenna. They could make the future requirements include generating more power add a lab, add science part or other similar parts. You would get rewarded after completing each stage of the contract.

I also think there should be a limited number of contracts along with an automatic income based on reputation. By limited number of contracts I mean once you have several sats in orbit around Kerbin you will not get more contracts to put a sat in orbit around Kerbin. If you completed several land on the Mun contracts you will no longer get them.

This would mean they need to boost contract rewards but also lessen grinding the same contracts in the same SOI or biome, if you complete them all the monthly income based on rep would cover funding.

Limiting contracts would also motivate players to expand beyond just the Mun and Mimus since once those contracts are complete you need to move on to other places.

Having a monthly income based on rep also gives a player a little more flexabilty in how they want to play, instead of funding their program soley on completing contracts. I just say this because I have held up missions waiting for the contract to appear or had to grind some contracts to get the funds to do what I wanted. A monthly income will lessen this and the player progresses it would allow them to do more of what they want and not need to worry about completeing contracts as much.

I like the idea of contracts by Biomes. Though I don't think the actual Biome name should be revealed to the player until they reach the destination. Those are supposed to be hidden by design so you have to find them yourself, though having a more specific location to land by contracts would be nice. Like an invisible beacon that spawns in a new biome that they want you to plant a flag at. Player only see's an icon on their map, but not the biome name or anything.

[archnem]

I always thought the best system would be to let the player decide what objectives they want to meet and then offer contracts (minus a few randoms like rescues and part tests) related to those objectives. For example, let the player decide "I want to go to Minmus (or insert other body here)", and then offer contracts like "Build an outpost on Minmus" or "Perform visual survey" etc to allow the player to build a "mission profile" of sorts based on the things they want to do when they get there. Let contracts work for the player not the other way around.

I also think all the "Explore Body" contracts should be freebies like the "Gain X altitude/distance" contracts. Mainly because I CANT GET THE FREAKING MINMUS CONTRACT TO SPAWN AGHRAGE!!

[Arsonide]

Howdy, there are a lot of great ideas here! I wanted to address a few of them, as several of them have actually been addressed already.

I had a friend try playing it, got a contract to Land on the Mun, he barely did it and got back (was more a fluke that he did actually), and then he got a contract to do 3 temperature burns on Jool? O.o; 2 for Duna, and another for one of Jools moons. x.x;;;

This was a known progression issue in 1.0, it was fixed in the hotfix.

2) Split up the "Explore planet" 1 time contracts into smaller individual parts.

This is what the World First contracts are. There are hundreds of them. They have one objective, and the same rewards as Explores: 25% of the objectives, 25% of the rewards. They are always offered by World First. They will never offer you something you have done before, and they will never ask you to do something you aren't ready for. If they ask you to go to another planet, it will be after you've exhausted the basic possibilities of the ones you've been to.

3) Make contracts calculated off of what you've done

Most of them are. They keep track of all sorts of things ranging from your researched technology, to your program's achievements, to your facility upgrades. Very few of them can skip progressional steps, like the Explore contracts, but usually if they do skip a planet, it will be in an exceptional difficulty contract - the harder ones with three stars. This means it pays much more to compensate.

4) Add more contracts for Planes.. like seriously please...

5) Add contracts for space planes specifically... please...

Surveys were added to address this a bit, but because there are only four planets with atmospheres, they were made more generic, so they aren't specifically designed for any particular kind of vessel. Distance records were also added for plane oriented players.

9) Change "for 10 seconds" thing, because it doesn't make sense.. anyone can put a random rocket into an unstable orbit for 10 seconds.. (even if the contract says "Stable orbit for 10 seconds" it can be in an unstable orbit and still count for 10 seconds). Instead increase these too several days or hours depending on difficulty.

Forcing the player to stare at his vessel for hours is not necessarily a fun gameplay mechanic. These objectives are not there to hold the player up, but to prevent state issues, like crashing into the surface of a planet counting as a "landing" because you touched the surface for one frame. They could probably be reduced to one second, actually, but ten seconds ensures that the player isn't tipping over, or something similar.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Arsonide

[obi_juan]

I always say the same... You will choose the contract that you wanted to complete... In my actual game I am taking almost all the tourist and rescue missions... The reward is huge and usually I can make the rescue, the tourist tour and a few of science, with the same ship...

The only problem that I have now are the SSTO... I made without trouble with NEAR and FAR... But the new atmosphere is exponential... I will surpass with time

[LadyAthena]

Howdy, there are a lot of great ideas here! I wanted to address a few of them, as several of them have actually been addressed already.

This was a known progression issue in 1.0, it was fixed in the hotfix.

This is what the World First contracts are. There are hundreds of them. They have one objective, and the same rewards as Explores: 25% of the objectives, 25% of the rewards. They are always offered by World First. They will never offer you something you have done before, and they will never ask you to do something you aren't ready for. If they ask you to go to another planet, it will be after you've exhausted the basic possibilities of the ones you've been to.

Most of them are. They keep track of all sorts of things ranging from your researched technology, to your program's achievements, to your facility upgrades. Very few of them can skip progressional steps, like the Explore contracts, but usually if they do skip a planet, it will be in an exceptional difficulty contract - the harder ones with three stars. This means it pays much more to compensate.

Surveys were added to address this a bit, but because there are only four planets with atmospheres, they were made more generic, so they aren't specifically designed for any particular kind of vessel. Distance records were also added for plane oriented players.

Forcing the player to stare at his vessel for hours is not necessarily a fun gameplay mechanic. These objectives are not there to hold the player up, but to prevent state issues, like crashing into the surface of a planet counting as a "landing" because you touched the surface for one frame. They could probably be reduced to one second, actually, but ten seconds ensures that the player isn't tipping over, or something similar.

The contracts are still wonky.

As for "looking at your spaceship for hours" YOu know you can fast forward time and make that 1 hour ingame into 10 seconds right?

[Arsonide]

As for "looking at your spaceship for hours" YOu know you can fast forward time and make that 1 hour ingame into 10 seconds right?

Absolutely, but does that make for engaging gameplay? Also, time acceleration implies vessel stability. It freezes the rotation and trajectory of the vessel, so it's an unnecessary layer of complexity for something relatively simple.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Arsonide

[KerikBalm]

I always thought the best system would be to let the player decide what objectives they want to meet and then offer contracts (minus a few randoms like rescues and part tests) related to those objectives. For example, let the player decide "I want to go to Minmus (or insert other body here)", and then offer contracts like "Build an outpost on Minmus" or "Perform visual survey" etc to allow the player to build a "mission profile" of sorts based on the things they want to do when they get there. Let contracts work for the player not the other way around.

I also think all the "Explore Body" contracts should be freebies like the "Gain X altitude/distance" contracts. Mainly because I CANT GET THE FREAKING MINMUS CONTRACT TO SPAWN AGHRAGE!!

Yes... I've had issues like this before... as soon as minmus starts showing up in other contracts, the explore one doesn't spawn.

In the past, I've gone and .cfg edited to delete the other contracts for stuff at minmus, and then it spawned, I'm going to try that gain today....

now what number was minmus?.... hmmm....

[MarvinKitFox]

They really need to be overhauled to a point. ....

I had a friend try playing it, got a contract to Land on the Mun, he barely did it and got back (was more a fluke that he did actually), and then he got a contract to do 3 temperature burns on Jool?

The problem is your ignorance of what is actually needed to complete the contracts.

Getting a couple of temperature readings near Jool, compared to landing on the Mun? Jool is *easier*.

The only added skill needed is interplanetary transfer.

Your vessel requires LESS delta-v, MUCH LESS mass, and simpler design than the Mun lander.

Don't be fooled by the thought that simply because it is far away, it is harder to reach.

p.s.

About that Mun landing..

If your contract was to land on the Mun, WHY did you bother to build for the 20X harder job of "Land on Mun AND RETURN"??

So the advice is:

Read the contract.

DO the contract, and no more. If it asks for land, then land only don't try return. Send an unmanned probe, unless the contract demands a Kerbal plant a Flag there.

You do not get rewarded for over-accomplishing the task.

[LadyAthena]

The problem is your ignorance of what is actually needed to complete the contracts.

Getting a couple of temperature readings near Jool, compared to landing on the Mun? Jool is *easier*.

The only added skill needed is interplanetary transfer.

Your vessel requires LESS delta-v, MUCH LESS mass, and simpler design than the Mun lander.

Don't be fooled by the thought that simply because it is far away, it is harder to reach.

p.s.

About that Mun landing..

If your contract was to land on the Mun, WHY did you bother to build for the 20X harder job of "Land on Mun AND RETURN"??

So the advice is:

Read the contract.

DO the contract, and no more. If it asks for land, then land only don't try return. Send an unmanned probe, unless the contract demands a Kerbal plant a Flag there.

You do not get rewarded for over-accomplishing the task.

Your post was quite insulting. Regardless. Getting enough Delta V to make it to Jool, and burn enough to get in the orbit it desires, burn to get the proper angle it requires for all the temperature readings, etc. takes loads upon loads more Delta V and is more difficult than a Mun landing. So before you start throwing insults around try to be sure you're not the one being ignorant.