How to flesh out the Kerbal crew experience system

[thereaverofdarkness]

Your Kerbal crew don't gain much from leveling up, and a lot of levels give you nothing at all. Furthermore, scientists have only niche uses and their transmit bonus doesn't actually work--they always transmit at the original amount that anyone would have transmitted at. Engineers are even more niche--they seem to have a bonus to the use of drills but I can't figure out what it does. Here is a plan for a richer crew ability and leveling system, offering more distinction to each specific job, and making each higher level a useful upgrade every time:

Pilot level 0: +5% torque from reaction wheels; can use SAS systems to stabilize craft

Pilot level 1: +10% torque from reaction wheels; can follow prograde and retrograde markers

Pilot level 2: +15% torque from reaction wheels; can follow normal/antinormal and radial in/out markers

Pilot level 3: +20% torque from reaction wheels; can follow target prograde/retrograde markers as well as maneuver nodes

Pilot level 4: +25% torque from reaction wheels

Pilot level 5: +30% torque from reaction wheels

Scientist level 0: +5% science on transmit; +5% max recovery per experiment; can operate science equipment manually

Scientist level 1: +10% science on transmit; +8% max recovery per experiment; can clean out transmitted experiments

Scientist level 2: +14% science on transmit; +11% max recovery per experiment; can clean out removed experiments

Scientist level 3: +17% science on transmit; +14% max recovery per experiment

Scientist level 4: +19% science on transmit; +17% max recovery per experiment

Scientist level 5: +20% science on transmit; +20% max recovery per experiment

Engineer level 0: -5% drill heat; +5% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 50% effectiveness

Engineer level 1: -10% drill heat; +10% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 55% effectiveness; can repack parachutes

Engineer level 2: -15% drill heat; +15% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 60% effectiveness; can repair popped tires

Engineer level 3: -20% drill heat; +20% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 65% effectiveness; can repair landing legs fully

Engineer level 4: -25% drill heat; +25% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 70% effectiveness

Engineer level 5: -30% drill heat; +30% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 75% effectiveness

Level 0 crewmembers gain some of the primary bonus in case the secondary bonuses are not useful, for instance if a scientist is working with experiments that do not need cleaning, the scientist still grants a bonus to the science obtained from the experiments.

Each level of pilot increases the torque you get from a reaction wheel, allowing for easier control of the ship at no additional energy cost.

Scientists increase the amount of science obtained from transmitting additively per level, so for instance a level 3 scientist (+17%) transmitting data from a surface sample (base 25% transmit value) will transmit 42% of the base science value for the experiment. The Mobile Processing Lab offers a 25% additive bonus to transmit value which is better than a max-level scientist, however it is very large and cumbersome. If it is crewed by at least one scientist, it gains half of that scientist's bonus as well, so with a level 3 scientist inside, the transmit bonus is 33.5%, and a surface sample would transmit at 58.5% of the base recovery value. If there are two scientists inside the MPL, only the higher bonus of the two is used.

Scientists also increase the maximum amount of science that can be obtained from each experiment. This does not increase the amount you transmit at all, and does not increase the amount from your first recovery, but it raises the recovery cap, allowing subsequent recoveries to grant a bit more science. The bonus is applied from the highest level scientist on board the ship when the experiment is performed. EVA reports and surface samples only gain a bonus when performed by a scientist.

The scientist's transmit bonus rises quickly with experience and tapers off, while the recovery bonus rises gradually. This should hopefully match the playstyles of those who prefer transmitting or recovering.

Engineers can crew a drill to make it run faster while heating more slowly, significantly improving your ore collection rates. They can also repair broken parts of your craft at partial effectiveness. These are any parts of the craft (other than science experiment modules) that initially had a function but got dinged and ceased working although it is still attached to the craft. For instance, if Jebediah was hopping across the top of the craft and he stepped on an OX-STAT panel a bit too hard, it's okay because Bill can go out and fix it. It'll only grant 22.5 electric power per minute (at level 0), but it's better than nothing. This also covers the broken landing legs, although an engineer below level 3 will not be able to make them extend fully.

edit: forgot a section

All crew gains 50% of their experience on the spot when they perform an activity that grants experience and 25% when they spend 6 hours (resting) within an immobile habitation craft (ie. a station). As long as the Kerbal performs no work for 1 full Kerbin day/night cycle and the craft the Kerbal is in does not change its orbit more than 0.1º (to account for bumping or phantom thrust from SAS rotation, or using RCS to rotate), the Kerbal will "rest" and gain up to 75% total saved experience. You still have to return them home to get full experience.

adding an ability for engineers:

Engineers (all levels) can operate folding equipment without power by going to the module and folding it by hand. This can save your craft if you run out of power and you had forgotten to extend the solar panels, for instance.

Edited May 6, 2015 by thereaverofdarkness

[r4pt0r]

I'm not fond of pilots affecting ship torque http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/97769-Opinions-on-Kerbal-Experience

- - - Updated - - -

But the other stuff, science and mining efficiency, sound good

[thereaverofdarkness]

What's wrong with pilots increasing torque?

[mattinoz]

"Ye cannot break the laws of Physics."

So why would a physical attribute of a piece of hardware be higher by skill?

What would be believable to me at least is reaction time and over correction. A skilled pilot would feel the course drift and react to correct even before the instruments tell them it's drifting. A low skilled pilot takes more time to react and will over correct a bit before hitting the mark much like the current RCS system always overreacts.

[zekes]

Fleshing out the Kerbal system shouldn't be too hard, but i mean it is Green, being new, and kerbal, and all (get it)

On Topic: I never actually use the kerbal stabilization stuff anyway....

[thereaverofdarkness]

"Ye cannot break the laws of Physics."

So why would a physical attribute of a piece of hardware be higher by skill?

What would be believable to me at least is reaction time and over correction. A skilled pilot would feel the course drift and react to correct even before the instruments tell them it's drifting. A low skilled pilot takes more time to react and will over correct a bit before hitting the mark much like the current RCS system always overreacts.

A skilled pilot maybe knows how to apply the torque better, and does so in a more efficient way? It's a tricky device to use, even a robot probably wouldn't apply force perfectly. Or maybe I'm wrong.

I think the thing about less over-correction might already be implemented. I was playing today and noticed that my level 2 pilot (who I was using at level 2 for the first time) was overcorrecting much less than I am used to, even these past few days playing the full release. I was able to tell the pilot to go to a node on the other side of the navball and she'd do it usually with no overcorrection at all. Maybe it was the way the craft was built, but maybe it was the pilot's level of training.

[arkie87]

Your Kerbal crew don't gain much from leveling up, and a lot of levels give you nothing at all. Furthermore, scientists have only niche uses and their transmit bonus doesn't actually work--they always transmit at the original amount that anyone would have transmitted at. Engineers are even more niche--they seem to have a bonus to the use of drills but I can't figure out what it does. Here is a plan for a richer crew ability and leveling system, offering more distinction to each specific job, and making each higher level a useful upgrade every time:

Pilot level 0: +5% torque from reaction wheels; can use SAS systems to stabilize craft

Pilot level 1: +10% torque from reaction wheels; can follow prograde and retrograde markers

Pilot level 2: +15% torque from reaction wheels; can follow normal/antinormal and radial in/out markers

Pilot level 3: +20% torque from reaction wheels; can follow target prograde/retrograde markers as well as maneuver nodes

Pilot level 4: +25% torque from reaction wheels

Pilot level 5: +30% torque from reaction wheels

Scientist level 0: +5% science on transmit; +5% max recovery per experiment; can clean out experiments

Scientist level 1: +10% science on transmit; +8% max recovery per experiment

Scientist level 2: +14% science on transmit; +11% max recovery per experiment

Scientist level 3: +17% science on transmit; +14% max recovery per experiment

Scientist level 4: +19% science on transmit; +17% max recovery per experiment

Scientist level 5: +20% science on transmit; +20% max recovery per experiment

Engineer level 0: -5% drill heat; +5% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 50% effectiveness

Engineer level 1: -10% drill heat; +10% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 55% effectiveness; can repack parachutes

Engineer level 2: -15% drill heat; +15% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 60% effectiveness; can repair popped tires

Engineer level 3: -20% drill heat; +20% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 65% effectiveness; can repair landing legs fully

Engineer level 4: -25% drill heat; +25% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 70% effectiveness

Engineer level 5: -30% drill heat; +30% drill yield per second; can repair broken craft components to 75% effectiveness

Level 0 crewmembers gain some of the primary bonus in case the secondary bonuses are not useful, for instance if a scientist is working with experiments that do not need cleaning, the scientist still grants a bonus to the science obtained from the experiments.

Each level of pilot increases the torque you get from a reaction wheel, allowing for easier control of the ship at no additional energy cost.

Scientists increase the amount of science obtained from transmitting additively per level, so for instance a level 3 scientist (+17%) transmitting data from a surface sample (base 25% transmit value) will transmit 42% of the base science value for the experiment. The Mobile Processing Lab offers a 25% additive bonus to transmit value which is better than a max-level scientist, however it is very large and cumbersome. If it is crewed by at least one scientist, it gains half of that scientist's bonus as well, so with a level 3 scientist inside, the transmit bonus is 33.5%, and a surface sample would transmit at 58.5% of the base recovery value. If there are two scientists inside the MPL, only the higher bonus of the two is used.

Scientists also increase the maximum amount of science that can be obtained from each experiment. This does not increase the amount you transmit at all, and does not increase the amount from your first recovery, but it raises the recovery cap, allowing subsequent recoveries to grant a bit more science. The bonus is applied from the highest level scientist on board the ship when the experiment is performed. EVA reports and surface samples only gain a bonus when performed by a scientist.

The scientist's transmit bonus rises quickly with experience and tapers off, while the recovery bonus rises gradually. This should hopefully match the playstyles of those who prefer transmitting or recovering.

Engineers can crew a drill to make it run faster while heating more slowly, significantly improving your ore collection rates. They can also repair broken parts of your craft at partial effectiveness. These are any parts of the craft (other than science experiment modules) that initially had a function but got dinged and ceased working although it is still attached to the craft. For instance, if Jebediah was hopping across the top of the craft and he stepped on an OX-STAT panel a bit too hard, it's okay because Bill can go out and fix it. It'll only grant 22.5 electric power per minute (at level 0), but it's better than nothing. This also covers the broken landing legs, although an engineer below level 3 will not be able to make them extend fully.

Instead of pilots effecting ship torque (which is unrealistic), more experienced pilots should have better or auto-tuning values for the values in the internal autopilot's PID controller.

In addition, i think pilots should gain experience in flight, rather than upon recovery. It's silly that i could have a crew on the Mun for years collecting science, but they dont level up until i bring them back...

[Tex_NL]

Level 0 scientist should not be able to reset experiments. In my opinion they should at least be level 1 or possible even 2.

Remote operation of science experiments at level 0 is fine.

[Tex]

I would say that Engineers should be able to be able to restore broken part functionality to 100% at level 6. I mean, they're literally at the top of their game at that point, and they are the best of the best engineers. Only 75% is good, but still not completely fixed like they can be.

Perhaps it could be because they're working in the field and not in a workshop or laboratory, but I'd say even 90% would be closer to the mark.

[Sirrobert]

I believe incremental increases on part preformance was in intial plan for skills, but Squad deceided that it was stupid. I agree with them

[micha]

It's (IMHO) also silly that Engineers need to fly to Jool and plant a flag in order to learn how to repair landing legs.

Basically the core idea of Kerbal Experience and Roles is great, but the implementation needs a serious rethink. Experience should be gained per mission, with multipliers depending on the mission complexity. So for example, you could either grind 100 missions to LKO, or do a single Jool flyby.

Scientists would get mission multipliers for doing science - reading and resetting instruments, running experiments in labs, etc.

Pilots get mission multipliers for flying (duh).

Engineers get mission multipliers for mining and repairing stuff.

Also, it should be possible to train (or hire pre-trained) Kerbals without them needing to fly a mission. Perhaps by having a higher-skilled Kerbal mentor - that way you can only train up to a certain level, the rest would need to be gained through experience.

Finally, Kerbals need to be able to learn multiple roles, such as a Pilot-Scientist. The current early game is very difficult because you only have a single-Kerbal pod for a very long time, which means either very difficult flying, or Pilots-only. IRL every astronaut is multi-skilled, with rudimentary knowledge in everything and then specialised.

Kerbals with multiple roles would gain levels slower and roles would be capped below the maximum. This way there's still incentives to keep Jeb as a hot-shot Pilot and there'd always be a trade-off between sending a single jack-of-all-trades or a couple of specialists.

[Tex_NL]

Another thing that has bugged me for quite a while:

During the initial phases of career mode I totally understand the new Kerbal recruits are basically idiots, unable to do all but the simplest task. But later on when your tech level increases and KSC develops new recruits should be more skilled as well.

Tier 1 buildings should start new recruits at level 0. Level 1 for tier 2 and level 2 for tier 3. Tracking station for pilots, R&D for scientists and perhaps VAB for engineers.

That way it will no longer take multiple missions to Duna and Jool to earn the required experience to learn some basic skills.

[arkie87]

Another thing that has bugged me for quite a while:

During the initial phases of career mode I totally understand the new Kerbal recruits are basically idiots, unable to do all but the simplest task. But later on when your tech level increases and KSC develops new recruits should be more skilled as well.

Tier 1 buildings should start new recruits at level 0. Level 1 for tier 2 and level 2 for tier 3. Tracking station for pilots, R&D for scientists and perhaps VAB for engineers.

That way it will no longer take multiple missions to Duna and Jool to earn the required experience to learn some basic skills.

Either that, or when you hire new recruits, you have the choice to hire a level 0, level 1, level 2, etc... and each hire costs a different amount...

Not sure if the level of your buildings should dictate skill level of new hires though. I think level should be the highest level kerbal you have minus 1. So if you have a level 5 Kerbal, you can hire a level 4 (and since there is no difference in level 4 and 5, you can still hire a kerbal with max experience).

[katateochi]

I'm not fond of pilots affecting ship torque http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/97769-Opinions-on-Kerbal-Experience

- - - Updated - - -

But the other stuff, science and mining efficiency, sound good

I also not keen on pilots affecting ship torque.

Level 0 scientist should not be able to reset experiments. In my opinion they should at least be level 1 or possible even 2.

Remote operation of science experiments at level 0 is fine.

I'd agree with this too. Level 0 scientists being able to reset experiments kinda makes that aspect too easy right now.

Although I've no idea what I'd like more skilled pilots to be able to do, I do have a thought about training them; I'd like a system where a low level pilot would gain experience faster by spending in-flight time in a craft with an experienced pilot. So experienced pilots can be used to run training missions for newbie pilots (which is kinda realistic).

[thereaverofdarkness]

Instead of pilots effecting ship torque (which is unrealistic), more experienced pilots should have better or auto-tuning values for the values in the internal autopilot's PID controller.

In addition, i think pilots should gain experience in flight, rather than upon recovery. It's silly that i could have a crew on the Mun for years collecting science, but they dont level up until i bring them back...

I don't understand what you mean by better auto-tuning values for the internal PID controller. Can you elaborate? I'd love to give pilots something more realistic.

I mean to have crews gain partial experience in the field, but I forgot to add that section. Thanks for the reminder, it is now added to the OP.

Level 0 scientist should not be able to reset experiments. In my opinion they should at least be level 1 or possible even 2.

Remote operation of science experiments at level 0 is fine.

I was considering that also, but I couldn't think of any good abilities to give them at level 0. Remote operation of experiments is already doable with any crewmember or even a probe core, and I wouldn't change that. I was thinking of differentiating transmitting and removing experiment, perhaps a level 0 scientist could clean it after a transmit, but only level 2 or higher can remove the experiment and then clean it.

I would say that Engineers should be able to be able to restore broken part functionality to 100% at level 6. I mean, they're literally at the top of their game at that point, and they are the best of the best engineers. Only 75% is good, but still not completely fixed like they can be.

Perhaps it could be because they're working in the field and not in a workshop or laboratory, but I'd say even 90% would be closer to the mark.

It's supposed to be because they are in the field. I haven't played with the numbers but I figured from 50% to 75% would be operable and potentially enough to salvage the mission, while still being lousy and making you want to get it fixed. Of course, if you just avoid getting the ship dinged in the first place, you won't have the problem. Maybe there could be a toolkit module which adds some mass but gives an engineer the capability of repairing 15% higher.

[Sirrobert]

Another thing that has bugged me for quite a while:

During the initial phases of career mode I totally understand the new Kerbal recruits are basically idiots, unable to do all but the simplest task. But later on when your tech level increases and KSC develops new recruits should be more skilled as well.

Tier 1 buildings should start new recruits at level 0. Level 1 for tier 2 and level 2 for tier 3. Tracking station for pilots, R&D for scientists and perhaps VAB for engineers.

That way it will no longer take multiple missions to Duna and Jool to earn the required experience to learn some basic skills.

I like that. Perhaps upgrading the crew building making trained Kerbals available for expencive hire

[thereaverofdarkness]

Scientists would get mission multipliers for doing science - reading and resetting instruments, running experiments in labs, etc.

Pilots get mission multipliers for flying (duh).

Engineers get mission multipliers for mining and repairing stuff.

Also, it should be possible to train (or hire pre-trained) Kerbals without them needing to fly a mission. Perhaps by having a higher-skilled Kerbal mentor - that way you can only train up to a certain level, the rest would need to be gained through experience.

Finally, Kerbals need to be able to learn multiple roles, such as a Pilot-Scientist. The current early game is very difficult because you only have a single-Kerbal pod for a very long time, which means either very difficult flying, or Pilots-only. IRL every astronaut is multi-skilled, with rudimentary knowledge in everything and then specialised.

Kerbals with multiple roles would gain levels slower and roles would be capped below the maximum. This way there's still incentives to keep Jeb as a hot-shot Pilot and there'd always be a trade-off between sending a single jack-of-all-trades or a couple of specialists.

Good ideas. I'm not sure how to implement it, but the current system seems to give experience for pilot activities.

I like Tex_NL's idea for hiring kerbals, in which the level of buildings determines the hired level: "Tier 1 buildings should start new recruits at level 0. Level 1 for tier 2 and level 2 for tier 3. Tracking station for pilots, R&D for scientists and perhaps VAB for engineers." But I would instead make it based on the crew hiring center's level, and available crew would vary in level up to the maximum available, with better trained crew being more costly.

I like that. Perhaps upgrading the crew building making trained Kerbals available for expencive hire

That!

Kerbals do all have training in all areas. Every Kerbal can fly a ship even if they can't use SAS, they can all perform science experiments, and they can all operate mining drills. There is a bit of a disparity, however, in that the pilot's role of SAS is far more important than the scientist's ability to clean experiments, or the engineer's tiny bonus...whatever it does. So I was thinking of making it so that non-pilots would have partial SAS ability: you must arrest the ship's spin most of the way by yourself, but once it's spinning slower than the amount of spin you can generate in, say, 0.25 seconds of turning, the kerbal at the controls would take over and hold stability.

Edited May 5, 2015 by thereaverofdarkness

[Tex_NL]

...

I was considering that also, but I couldn't think of any good abilities to give them at level 0. Remote operation of experiments is already doable with any crewmember or even a probe core, and I wouldn't change that. I was thinking of differentiating transmitting and removing experiment, perhaps a level 0 scientist could clean it after a transmit, but only level 2 or higher can remove the experiment and then clean it.

...

I think you misunderstood me.

Probes, pilots and engineers can operate experiments while they are still inside the pod but they can not while on EVA. Scientists can.

- - - Updated - - -

Since level 4 and 5 are still unused it could be an interesting option to allow learning the lvl 0 and 1 skill in one of the other two professions.

[nholzric]

Damaged parts are not a thing - except for landing gear and wheels - right? Destroyed parts are a thing, solar panels can be ripped off and stuff can explode. I'm not a big fan of giving everything a damage value, even if it gives Engineers something more to do.

[thereaverofdarkness]

I think you misunderstood me.

Probes, pilots and engineers can operate experiments while they are still inside the pod but they can not while on EVA. Scientists can.

Oh I see. I guess that's a useful trait when the experiment breaks off the craft on landing yet survives, but most of the time it's just a basic quality of life thing. Still, it's yet another idea of what functionality is available to scientists. Thanks.

Damaged parts are not a thing - except for landing gear and wheels - right? Destroyed parts are a thing, solar panels can be ripped off and stuff can explode. I'm not a big fan of giving everything a damage value, even if it gives Engineers something more to do.

I've seen parts break while still attached to the craft. They just sit there, unwilling to function but still firmly in place. I'm not sure how it works but I've seen it happen once in a while. I was thinking it'd be nice if sometimes when something got smacked only a little too hard, that it didn't outright explode. It could be achieved by giving each part two crash tolerances: the lower value to signify at which speed it breaks, and the higher value to signify at which speed it explodes. Broken parts would stay on the ship but would also transfer remaining speed on impact to the parts they press against, thus allowing more parts to break if you impact hard enough.

[arkie87]

I don't understand what you mean by better auto-tuning values for the internal PID controller. Can you elaborate? I'd love to give pilots something more realistic.

The crew can point the ship in certain directions. Sometimes this causes craft to wobble if the pilot is overcorrecting. Internally, i assume the game treats the pilot flying as a PID Controller. PID controllers need constants for their proportional, integral, and derivative values to work. If those values are not selected correctly (and indeed each ship might require different values, especially going from small ship to large ship), the ship can wobble and shake itself apart. There are methods for autotuning these values so that this doesnt happen. As kerbals level up, the values of the constants can scale with ship size, or, can be autotuned to avoid this.

[thereaverofdarkness]

I like that. It'd be great if pilots would do that stuff better as they level up.