Caves

[Shadows2b]

Hey why moving the thread to suggestions and close it? I did not come tu sugest it since it has been a long time request, but just to discuss about it.

Plus it was getting interesting.

Last post was about:

#1) The real solar system is pretty barren

#2) The sheer scale of what is being modeled here is insane. You can't expect to just put down randomly, and find a specially made adventure maze/puzzle/feature waiting for you.

The vast majority of everything will be procedurally generated, with specificly designed features really only evident from orbit (like the little cauldera islands on laythe, the valleys on duna, the very large mun craters, etc)

I suppose they could make the terrain scatter more varied, and vary by location/biome.... but if you can't be pleased by procedurally generated terrain, then you're asking too much I think.

Real solar system barren? you must be kidding me,

recently, Nasa did discover kilometers long caves on mars formed by ancient lavaflows and rivers.

They even plan to build the futures bases on mars in thoses caves since it would bring natural protection against comics rays.

And it's just mars, mercury is about boiling day face and freezing night face.

Venus is just hell cause to greenhouse effect and acid rains down.

And the moons of saturn ans jupiter hold more secrets than we could handle.

And I'mnot even talking abouts real asteroids who could keep the secret of life on earth.

Just thoses fact only detailled a infime portion of the infinity of things we could do up there.

So no, space isn't boring.

For the second point I can just be sad about it

[Slam_Jones]

Caves and similar geological features have been suggested so many times that they are now on the list of things not to suggest. This is not because they are bad ideas, but to allow the discussion to move on to other ideas.

If you're convinced that this type of procedurally generated terrain would be easy to implement, then I suggest trying to mod it in yourself. Perhaps a working model would convince to the developers to include or prioritize this feature. There are a few resources on the web by people who have attempted procedurally generated caves in 3D and there is plenty of information about how to mod KSP in the Plugin Development Help and Support forum.

Exactly as the mod said....

[Shadows2b]

Well science isn't a static thing.

Caves could have been a minecraft fantasy yesterday but could be legit today.

More than the idea of implementing it, i'm here to discuss their legitimity as today.

And by the time i wrote this, he didn't post it, so i did not understood it. Sorry.

But if nobody cares about extraterrestrial geological formations, i'll withdraw

Edited May 11, 2015 by Shadows2b

[Gerandar]

in a game about spaceflight and landing on planets im not gonna go looking for caves.

[Slam_Jones]

I guess the point is that it's been discussed to death plenty of times before... I'm under the impression that everything that could be said about it has already been said. Not saying it's a bad idea (personally I'd love to see more interesting features and terrain on planets) but just that's it's been suggested by everyone and their cousin already.

[KatzOhki]

Here's the two things to take away from this:

#1 There is a specific section of the forum for posting and discussing additions to the game.

#2 This specific topic has come up before, so no need to rehash it all over again.

[Shadows2b]

in a game about spaceflight and landing on planets im not gonna go looking for caves.

Since i recall, it' s called kerbal space program, not kerbal rocket rampage(accounts for you too jeb).

And a space program is about exploring space and make discoveries.

Not just put some chunk of metal on it.

This is not just about caves. it's about everything that wait for us up there in reality.

and it could be nice to have a peek on this game today, since I believe that i'll be dead when the man gonna put a feet further than the moon.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Shadows2b

[Master Tao]

Alright, it has been a while since we've had a discussion about terrain features and this thread looks more like a discussion than the last. It would be interesting to see if anyone can find working examples of procedurally-generated 3D terrain features like caves, since all features that massive in KSP are procedurally generated.

If you have questions about moderation actions in the future, take it to PMs.

[ZooNamedGames]

Since i recall, it' s called kerbal space program, not kerbal rocket rampage(accounts for you too jeb).

And a space program is about exploring space and make discoveries.

Not just put some chunk of metal on it.

This is not just about caves. it's about everything that wait for us up there in reality.

and it could be nice to have a peek on this game today, since I believe that i'll be dead when the man gonna put a feet further than the moon.

How old are you? If you've got 20 years on you- then you'll see it. I doubt anyone older than 10 will see a manned VENUS landing... Or Mercury- but I'm certain you'll see the Martian landing. Too much push for us not to.

[Shadows2b]

How old are you? If you've got 20 years on you- then you'll see it. I doubt anyone older than 10 will see a manned VENUS landing... Or Mercury- but I'm certain you'll see the Martian landing. Too much push for us not to.

Well you are really optimist. I may be young, there are so many things that could happend retarding us.

If this world was a beatiful place of peace and hapiness I would have know

But there a so many conflicts erupting everywhere, and a lot of humans on this earth seems to prefer ruining humanity than making it go further.

As en exemple the contract for the maintenance of the ISS is coming near to en end, and the main contributors, USA and Russia are quite not the bests friends forever. it may even be abandoned (even if it seems unlikely to happen).

All this things combined with the conflicts everywhere in third world make Space conquer rather futile.

Of course it could go well,but I can't ignore thoses facts:sticktongue:

[Whirligig Girl]

Alright, it has been a while since we've had a discussion about terrain features and this thread looks more like a discussion than the last. It would be interesting to see if anyone can find working examples of procedurally-generated 3D terrain features like caves, since all features that massive in KSP are procedurally generated.

If you have questions about moderation actions in the future, take it to PMs.

I'm assuming you mean 3D, non-voxel caves. Although that does bring up the question of whether PQS could be ditched at some point in the future (maybe 6 or 7 years down the line with a KSP reboot) in favor of voxel-based spherical 3D planets. Such a system would support more interesting mining mechanics, crater crashes, much more detailed terrain, and caves.

I would assume that if they made another Kerbal Space Program, then they would decide to build it around a full scale 1:1 planetary system. If we start from there, the stock game can be better balanced around it than the current stock game can. Not to mention the leaps in technology that are no doubt coming in the next few years.

[Tex]

It would be interesting to see if anyone can find working examples of procedurally-generated 3D terrain features like caves, since all features that massive in KSP are procedurally generated.

Aha, I've got one already. Look at Rust, from Facepunch Studios. In their new version of Rust they've got some procedural caves that you can explore in. They're extremely buggy but since they were added not a whole lot has been tinkered with on them, so I'm interested to see where they go.

Of course, these caves aren't procedural themselves, what with branching tunnels like Minecraft or whatever, but I believe there are several presets that are spawned in the world with seeds.

[tater]

In real life, some guys have suggested using intact lava tubes as habitats on the Moon. Collapsed lava tubes as rilles, would show the player where to look.

Another awesome pic:

What if Squad added a number of rilles, and some open lava tubes associated with some of the rilles. These would be like anomalies, not terribly common.

Have a new game mechanism for building a facility in-situ. Add a new (very heavy, VERY expensive (think upper-level facility-upgrade level expensive) part called a "construction depot," and have a contract after you discover a lava tube that requires landing a few of these in a specific area near to the tube, plus a number of other, required things (drills, etc). Once this is satisfied, you can build a permanent facility using the lava tube...

Here's the trick, the player doesn't build it, it is a facility like KSC, already designed to fit in that space (and the devs can make it flat near the entrance, etc).

The facility would house kerbals, and might include a hanger and a limited VAB (low height limit, moderate part limit) that requires delivering parts (something like a KAS/KIS inventory, but in 2.5 or larger cargo pods).

Edited May 12, 2015 by tater

[Tw1]

I do think procedurally generated items of interest would be awesome. But the OP makes a good point in the last thread- even at the anomalies, there isn't much to do- you're like a tourist with a camera.

(Though, we can also jump around on them, and we don't have cameras. (IMHO, a camera which you could use while on a planet to document landforms, ground scatters, and other things of interest, a la Extrasolar would be awesome.

Rather than just more static objects, to truly bring KSP's planets to life, we need some ground exploration game mechanics. The camera idea I wrote about above is one, what I posed here is another. Without it, the procedurally generated places will still mostly be eye candy.

If done well, the ability to actually investigate the planets could be a reward in an of itself. You put all the effort into building, then flying, and then get to actually get to make some discoveries.

We've already got rovers. It would be great to have more things to do with them.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Tw1

[tater]

The trick with any "science" in KSP, is to rethink it in terms of doing things that are:

1. Actually useful for gameplay.

2. Fun/interesting to do.

For number 1, this means showing stuff that you would otherwise have limited in game. An idea I threw out there was to have the map view fidelity and zoom level appropriate to some photographic surveys the player has done. Early cameras might give a zoom level on a survey down to looking down from 10km, while a photographic "crasher" probe like Ranger might allow you to zoom all the way to ground level---but only in the area your crasher imaged. Ideally the procedural cratering on the Mun would be applied to ALL airless bodies, and with the minimal crater size possible set slightly smaller (and a different version for worlds with atmospheres).

I think that caves like the actual image I posed above would be pretty cool, just because it would be cool to explore. That said, it still needs to be useful, hence my suggestion about having Squad make some pre-designed bases with a mechanism to construct them akin to upgrading facilities assuming some minimal requirements are met at the location.

[Sky_walker]

The trick with any "science" in KSP, is to rethink it in terms of doing things that are:

2. Fun/interesting to do.

I can't think of any existing "science" in KSP that would fulfill that condition.

I think that caves like the actual image I posed above would be pretty cool, just because it would be cool to explore.

I very much agree. It'd be a very interesting challenge for navigating in zero G. Some caves could also create unique environment to explore with rovers, something that we currently do not have in the game.

That said, it still needs to be useful, hence my suggestion about having Squad make some pre-designed bases with a mechanism to construct them akin to upgrading facilities assuming some minimal requirements are met at the location.

Would be very fun. But IMHO adding some scientific experiment that can be conducted only in caves would be interesting on it's own (eg. underground astrobiology sampler, or something like cave measurement package?)

Edited May 12, 2015 by Sky_walker

[tater]

A mod adds a seismometer and you then are supposed to impact a probe with some parameters to get a reading. That would be pretty cool. Fun is hard, though.