China's next gen spacecraft approved and underway!

[xenomorph555]

Over the past 6 months I have made many threads on the plans for a successor to the Shenzhou.

However the official details have been revealed.

The project actually started in June 2013 as a number of different studys.

In 2014 a study was chosen and more advanced designs were made, those designs were then refined.

It then went under heavy review for 3 months until it was it was officially approved by the government in October 2014 (at the same time as C5-T1 0_0).

With the project now under way and given an actual budget to work with (although classified as usual) work has begun creating the final designs/paperwork and testing of early prototype hardware.

A drop test of a mockup capsule will be done soon (or has already happened, who knows..).

As for the craft itself, it's basic specifications (that have been released) are as follows;

It will have two versions, a small 14 tonne LEO version and a 20 tonne lunar version.

Has an Apollo, TKS, Orion flat style capsule.

Can carry 6 to LEO and 4 to the moon.

2 year orbital storage.

LEO version us reusable.

LEO version will fly on a modified LM-7 while the Lunar version can fly on either a LM-5 or LM-9.

Smaller and lighter then Orion or PPTS.

First manned flight 2025-28.

Unfortunately the designs have not been revealed as of yet so we can't imagine exactly what it will look like so we will have to wait and see.

Also it is unknown if it is named as of yet (the project was originally called the Next Gen Spacecraft but might have changed), the official name will probably be announced by the president or something like that.

Anyway I'm pretty happy about this, with this and the LM-9 authorized in 2014 we just have to wait for the manned lander

[-Velocity-]

Isn't 20 tons a little small, especially for a four man crew to the Moon? Looking on Wikipedia, I see that the Apollo Command and Service modules together were like 29 metric tons. They supported a 3 man crew to the Moon. Chinese people are a bit smaller than the typical American... but not that much smaller (especially once you strip the fat layers off the American ). Will these spacecraft be really cramped, or are they better and more advanced? Or is it just that they're early in the design stages, so that the spacecraft haven't yet had the chance to go over budget and over weight yet?

Anyway, best of luck to the Chinese! I'll be rooting for them. I'm still hoping my country (the USA) will come to its senses and overturn the stupid congressional ban on working with the Chinese space program. The Chinese would be excellent partners for a manned Mars mission.

[Mazon Del]

Hey now! That is performance enhancing fat! Don't you go taking away our secret weapon!

[-Velocity-]

Hey now! That is performance enhancing fat! Don't you go taking away our secret weapon!

Well, it's fat that will certainly start coming in useful if the next supply ship to the ISS crashes too.

[AngelLestat]

Apollo Command and Service modules together were like 29 metric tons. They supported a 3 man crew to the Moon.

But 45 years pass... We have new materials now, all electronics are much lighter, engines are lighter, etc.

20 tons for 4 crew is more than fine.. And I bet they carry more equipment and they will travel more confortable.

[xenomorph555]

Isn't 20 tons a little small, especially for a four man crew to the Moon? Looking on Wikipedia, I see that the Apollo Command and Service modules together were like 29 metric tons. They supported a 3 man crew to the Moon. Chinese people are a bit smaller than the typical American... but not that much smaller (especially once you strip the fat layers off the American ). Will these spacecraft be really cramped, or are they better and more advanced? Or is it just that they're early in the design stages, so that the spacecraft haven't yet had the chance to go over budget and over weight yet?

Anyway, best of luck to the Chinese! I'll be rooting for them. I'm still hoping my country (the USA) will come to its senses and overturn the stupid congressional ban on working with the Chinese space program. The Chinese would be excellent partners for a manned Mars mission.

Apollo was 30 tonnes because it had about 20 tonnes of fuel to perform LOI, orbital manoeuvres, LOE. However you don't need one craft to do that, you also put some of the fuel in the lander (Constellation) or use a different stage (L3).

The Constellation Orion was about 20 tonnes and the Soviet LOK was 10 tonnes.

As for if it's cramped, probably about as much as Orion but it will mainly be a station taxi compared to Orion.

Also yes you are correct it is too early to start talking about more advanced things like the exact weight, I presume it will be along the lines of 23 tonnes.

- - - Updated - - -

But 45 years pass... We have new materials now, all electronics are much lighter, engines are lighter, etc.

20 tons for 4 crew is more than fine.. And I bet they carry more equipment and they will travel more confortable.

This too.

Edited May 13, 2015 by xenomorph555

[Reddragon]

I see that the Apollo Command and Service modules together were like 29 metric tons. They supported a 3 man crew to the Moon.

Note that Apollo had to carry enough fuel to make a lunar orbit insertion with the lander. As of now, no manned lunar lander is under development.

+ What AngelLestat said.

LEO version will fly on a modified LM-7 while the Lunar version can fly on either a LM-5 or LM-9.

LM-9 it will be probably. LM-5 can't send 20 tonnes to the Moon.

[xenomorph555]

LM-9 it will be probably. LM-5 can't send 20 tonnes to the Moon.

No but it would be good to use to test the lunar variant in LEO or for docking with landers/stages in LEO.

[Pipcard]

I'm taking this with a grain of salt until there is an actual, official statement from the CNSA and not just some internet forum (9ifly.cn).

Edited May 13, 2015 by Pipcard

[xenomorph555]

I'm taking this with a grain of salt until there is an actual, official statement from the CNSA and not just some internet forum (9ifly.cn).

Actually this info came from the latest edition of the 'Go Taikonauts' magazine, official enough for me however I do understand your concerns. As for a public announcement, that might take awhile, they didn't announce Shenzhou until the first test flight.

Edited May 13, 2015 by xenomorph555

[Kryten]

Actually this info came from the latest edition of the 'Go Taikonauts' magazine, official enough for me however I do understand your concerns.

It comes from somebody claiming it's in said magazine, but I haven't actually seen any pictures or scans.

[Bill Phil]

Isn't 20 tons a little small, especially for a four man crew to the Moon? Looking on Wikipedia, I see that the Apollo Command and Service modules together were like 29 metric tons. They supported a 3 man crew to the Moon. Chinese people are a bit smaller than the typical American... but not that much smaller (especially once you strip the fat layers off the American ). Will these spacecraft be really cramped, or are they better and more advanced? Or is it just that they're early in the design stages, so that the spacecraft haven't yet had the chance to go over budget and over weight yet?

Anyway, best of luck to the Chinese! I'll be rooting for them. I'm still hoping my country (the USA) will come to its senses and overturn the stupid congressional ban on working with the Chinese space program. The Chinese would be excellent partners for a manned Mars mission.

The Apollo CSM had a heavy SPS, though... Which added quite a bit of mass.

[CelticCossack51]

Anyway, best of luck to the Chinese! I'll be rooting for them. I'm still hoping my country (the USA) will come to its senses and overturn the stupid congressional ban on working with the Chinese space program. The Chinese would be excellent partners for a manned Mars mission.

I agree that there should be more cooperation with both space programs. I don't see the reason why the Americans are banned from working with the Chinese. Xiang qian, xian qian!

[Pipcard]

It's because there are concerns about Chinese industrial espionage, but I'm not sure if that's enough to justify a ban.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Pipcard

[ChrisSpace]

OMG MOON HYPE!

... oh, this is over a decade away. still, hype!

[Rune]

Yup, the Chinese seem to remain on track to become the second power to land guys on the Moon... good for them, I say. Anyone wanna bet that it'll look like a Dragon, with the same "tapered cone" form factor? That's one way of getting the mass efficiency to improve on Orion and the like. And a side-mounted escape system is all the rage these days...

Rune. Or Soyuz or Shenzhou, not just Dragon. I think even PPTS. NASA are the only guys that never used that form factor for capsules.

[billbobjebkirk]

The Apollo CSM had a heavy SPS, though... Which added quite a bit of mass.

Actually, unless you mean the engine and the fuel, the SPS was quite light.

Edited May 14, 2015 by billbobjebkirk

[xenomorph555]

Yup, the Chinese seem to remain on track to become the second power to land guys on the Moon... good for them, I say. Anyone wanna bet that it'll look like a Dragon, with the same "tapered cone" form factor? That's one way of getting the mass efficiency to improve on Orion and the like. And a side-mounted escape system is all the rage these days...

Rune. Or Soyuz or Shenzhou, not just Dragon. I think even PPTS. NASA are the only guys that never used that form factor for capsules.

They have stated it will be a Apollo-blunt body style capsule so it will not be like Dragon or PPTS.

As for the escape system it will use a conventional tower for 1st stage and it's own engines (on the SM) for the other stages. It will have a reusable parachute system for landing.

So looking at it from that angle, it will compare more to CST-100 then the other crafts.

[Bill Phil]

Actually, unless you mean the engine and the fuel, the SPS was quite light.

A few tonnes is not light.

And yes, I mean propellant.

The lightest CSM was 14 tonnes...

[Mazon Del]

I'd be quite amused if the first group back to the moon was SpaceX. That could be a fun situation, a race between China and SpaceX.

[xenomorph555]

I'd be quite amused if the first group back to the moon was SpaceX. That could be a fun situation, a race between China and SpaceX.

There will be no race, neither is the racing type. Besides currently neither have plans to land people on the moon.

[-Velocity-]

I'd be quite amused if the first group back to the moon was SpaceX. That could be a fun situation, a race between China and SpaceX.

SpaceX is a private company, and going to the Moon is very expensive. They won't be doing it unless they receive federal funding to do so.

[billbobjebkirk]

A few tonnes is not light.

And yes, I mean propellant.

The lightest CSM was 14 tonnes...

Yeah, if you include the fuel, the SPS is definitely really massive. I was refering to the engine alone, which was light enough that thay didn't switch to a smaller one when Direct Ascent was nixed.

[Mazon Del]

SpaceX is a private company, and going to the Moon is very expensive. They won't be doing it unless they receive federal funding to do so.

Quite possibly. The one scenario I could see where they might do it on their own without requiring federal funding is if Musk decides that the moon is a reasonable enough demo for certain systems needed for the Mars colonization effort he's got planned. Different enough that maybe it isn't worth it, but maybe similar enough that he does it. Either way, the man definitely has a lot of pride in his setup, I could see him going for it if his engineers feel they could do it first. Musk is not afraid to hurl away craptons of his cash for silly reasons. We've got quotes from former engineers of SpaceX about million dollar projects being scrapped and restarted because their current iterations were not "cool enough". Yes million and billion are different scales. Still, time will tell one way or another.