Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator is too late in the Tech Tree

[Wolf Baginski]

The PB-NUK RTG is currently right at the far end of the Tech Tree, the only item in Experimental Electrics and costing 1000 science points. Which, for a real-world technology that has been around as long as manned spaceflight, and was used for Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1973, seems wrong.

With the revision of solar panels greatly reducing their effectiveness beyond Duna-orbit, and nuclear rockets much more easily available, even though they have never flown in our real world, making them a bit less difficult to obtain looks pretty sensible to me.

Where to, I'm not sure. Specialized Electrics is obvious, where it was in v0.90, and parallels the Ion Drive technology at the same level. I think there is still a choice there, and it cuts the total science cost by 1000 points while opening up the high-science outer-planet probes.

We're talking about a technology that was in the same general timing as the large solar panels, which have kept getting bigger since, and the relatively early Pioneer units had a useful life of around 30 years.

I am going to have a look at adding a Module Manager script to shift it back to Specialized Electrics.

[Sky_walker]

Random fact: LV-N is available before PB-NUK RTG.

IMHO tech tree requires a fundamental overhaul and an addition of many new nodes to be both: more fun and start making sense.

[Murph]

Random fact: LV-N is available before PB-NUK RTG.

IMHO tech tree requires a fundamental overhaul and an addition of many new nodes to be both: more fun and start making sense.

LV-N isn't necessarily before RTG. LV-N is a lower level unlock, but one does not depend on the other. The RTG can be available before the LV-N if you want it first.

Yes, this is far from the only issue with the tech tree, the whole thing really needs to be redone to make some sense. Personally though, the RTG is one of the things I don't have an issue with being at the high end of the tree, as it's an advanced technology regardless of the era it comes from in the real world.

[cicatrix]

If you're so realism-inclined why don't you suggest RTG decay with diminishing power output every few years?

I think RTG was deliberately put late so that people could not abuse its 'free power' feature. It's a game balance issue rather than a real-life simulation.

[Sky_walker]

LV-N isn't necessarily before RTG. LV-N is a lower level unlock, but one does not depend on the other. The RTG can be available before the LV-N if you want it first.

Yes, it's a natural consequence of having research tree instead of linear progress. None the less - LV-N is before RTG (but RTG isn't in the same branch as LV-N).

If you're so realism-inclined why don't you suggest RTG decay with diminishing power output every few years?

I would love to see that. But it was suggested several times already and general responses were mixed, so I don't have any hopes for seeing that implemented in a game.

(Solar panels, batteries, fuel cells - everything lowers efficiency over time. Also fuel also degrades over time. I would really enjoy seeing all of these processes in a game)

I think RTG was deliberately put late so that people could not abuse its 'free power' feature.

And yet abusing uber-ISP without costs and risks involved in real life nuclear engines is perfectly fine? Cause I'm not fine with that.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sky_walker

[tater]

The first RTG flew into space less than 2 months after Alan Shepard, not the 1970s (June 29, 1961 was the first RTG flight).

Both the rtg and ntr are 1950s tech. The tech tree is absurd, frankly, and any attempt to make it flow as if one part develops another is silly since almost nothing in the tree actually follows from what precedes it, the stuff is pretty much concurrent.

Edited May 18, 2015 by tater

[cicatrix]

Yes, it's a natural consequence of having research tree instead of linear progress. None the less - LV-N is before RTG (but RTG isn't in the same branch as LV-N).

I would love to see that. But it was suggested several times already and general responses were mixed, so I don't have any hopes for seeing that implemented in a game.

(Solar panels, batteries, fuel cells - everything lowers efficiency over time. Also fuel also degrades over time. I would really enjoy seeing all of these processes in a game)

And yet abusing uber-ISP without costs and risks involved in real life nuclear engines is perfectly fine? Cause I'm not fine with that.

Have you tried Realism Overhaul?

[Sky_walker]

Have you tried Realism Overhaul?

It's not an Add-ons forum. Here we discouss game, not mods. But to answer your question: yes.

The tech tree is absurd.

Yes, and I'm sure many people would love it to be revamped. Most of it are remains from some early versions and really should be re-thought from ground-up. Either to follow chronological order or "power" scaling, or whatever else as long as it makes some logical sense.

[cicatrix]

Yes, and I'm sure many people would love it to be revamped. Most of it are remains from some early versions and really should be re-thought from ground-up. Either to follow chronological order or "power" scaling, or whatever else as long as it makes some logical sense.

I will attempt to defend the game tech tree. From my point of view it should not reflect actual technology level or actual chronology or whatever from the 'real world'. It's a game, and as in nearly all other games more advanced options are unlocked as a bonus for previous achievements. In some first person shooter you have only a handgun in the beginning though you might think it would be nice to have a rocket launcher early in the game... but no, you will get the rocket launcher only when the final boss comes out. In real world, however, a commando will be equipped with everything right from the beginning. Science in KSP is a way of keeping score and the higher your score is the higher the rewards.

[Laie]

I think the RTG's position on the tech tree, as well as it's preposterous cost, are a statement from squad: it's supposed to be an extraordinary solution for extraordinary needs. For the weekdays, there's fuel cells and solar panels. Can't say that I approve, but I certainly see where they're coming from.

[Hcube]

If only this was the only problem with the new tech tree......

What bugs me is getting 2.5m structural adapters BEFORE you can get any 2.5m engines... WHY ?

Also, i'm alright with the RTGs being far in the tech tree, but THIS far is a bit too much... If the developers want to make us use fuel cells instead, give them to us sooner. Even before the first static solar panel ! And make the LVNs harder to unlock ! because getting some ultra-fusion-nuclear reactor mounted on a rocket BEFORE getting a basic RTG (wich is way simpler) makes no sense...

Also, i don't really like that we sometimes get all of the parts for one type of stuff in a single node : example : There is a node to unlock the Mk3 parts. In this same node you get all the sizes of cargo bays ! I wish we had those progressively ! Obviously, a Mk3 cockpit should come with things such as Mk3 fuselages, but not all of the parts.

I made a poll about the new tech tree somewhere in the general KSP discussion a while ago to discuss all this

Edited May 18, 2015 by Hcube

[Slam_Jones]

I agree that the tech tree is a little... odd.

Does anyone know what mods are currently available to change up the tech tree? I think BTSM (Better than Starting Manned) changes it up, but I'm not sure if there are others.

[Hcube]

I agree that the tech tree is a little... odd.

Does anyone know what mods are currently available to change up the tech tree? I think BTSM (Better than Starting Manned) changes it up, but I'm not sure if there are others.

The problem though is that Better than starting manned does many other things : it adds a lot of gameplay elements, makes the game harder, includes DRE and life support..... I'm personnaly just looking for a tech tree revamp.

[Slam_Jones]

The problem though is that Better than starting manned does many other things : it adds a lot of gameplay elements, makes the game harder, includes DRE and life support..... I'm personnaly just looking for a tech tree revamp.

I hear ya there.

I find it bothersome when a mod will have the feature I'm looking for... along with 10 billion other features I would never use.

Guess when you reach that point, it's time to start making mods yourself. I've started modifying cfgs and stuff myself, personally, so I know there's always options.

[Wolf Baginski]

What I have done is put a reduced-power RTG in the Specialized Electrics node. Less power and more weight makes the outer planets open to probes. Remember, Squad have also greatly reduced the power output of solar cells, making it very difficult to transmit Science back from Jool and Eeloo without an RTG. These may be changes made for balancing, but the combination was excessive.

[cicatrix]

Remember, Squad have also greatly reduced the power output of solar cells, making it very difficult to transmit Science back from Jool and Eeloo without an RTG.

I installed Outer Planets but still never seen any of its planets because of that. I'm yet to unlock the RTG

[Sky_walker]

I will attempt to defend the game tech tree. From my point of view it should not reflect actual technology level or actual chronology or whatever from the 'real world'.

I'm fine with having it sorted by something that's not related to the real world, that's why I mentioned "power" scaling, or really - whatever else as long as it makes some logical sense.

It's a game, and as in nearly all other games more advanced options are unlocked as a bonus for previous achievements.

And that's not the case in KSP. Here order of unlocks is next to random, often less advanced parts are unlocked after more advanced. That's why tech tree gets so many complains.

[Streetwind]

What I have done is put a reduced-power RTG in the Specialized Electrics node. Less power and more weight makes the outer planets open to probes. Remember, Squad have also greatly reduced the power output of solar cells, making it very difficult to transmit Science back from Jool and Eeloo without an RTG. These may be changes made for balancing, but the combination was excessive.

I installed Outer Planets but still never seen any of its planets because of that. I'm yet to unlock the RTG

Have you considered bringing... a fuel cell?

Considering a mere half an Oscar-B tank of LFO mix can produce enough power for an ion engine to burn through two full tanks of xenon, using a fuel cell to power science transfer shouldn't even make the numbers in your tanks change. It'll be a "somewhere far behind the decimal point" affair.

The RTG is so far at the back of the tree because fuel cells already cover its niche at earlier tech levels. They were added precisely for that purpose.

[Kegereneku]

At the point we are, I think nothing but a complete remake of the Tech-tree is necessary.

You are not encouraged to do any preparation or logical choice based on your need, you are just grinding for bunch of part with maybe one or two part that are useful.

They might as well unlock surprise bundle each time we have enough science.

[/snark]

[cicatrix]

Considering a mere half an Oscar-B tank of LFO mix can produce enough power for an ion engine to burn through two full tanks of xenon, using a fuel cell to power science transfer shouldn't even make the numbers in your tanks change. It'll be a "somewhere far behind the decimal point" affair.

I'm feeling a little dumb right now... the idea of bringing a fuel cell to produce electricity to power the ion engine has never occurred to me.

[Streetwind]

Worry not, though! Near Future Electrical is sooooo cloooose, you can almost taste it... if only Squad would release that rumored final hotfix, that's all we're waiting on right now. Then you can have all the stock-friendly reactors and radiators (and decaying RTGs!) you want

[Guest]

Agree with OP.

Tech tree needs reworking. Actually all the science and technology thing needs reworking.

Tech tree was built with assumption like: Player starts with few and simple parts then unlocks better parts in strange order.

Tech tree needs to be more realistic and logical: Parts should be available in roughly same order as their prototypes were developed in our world.

Also, it would be nice to have prop engines, props, straight wings and fuselages at the start.

May be it's good idea to have it as option: start new game with simple (classic) or realistic tech tree.

[Tankman101]

Tech tree needs to be more realistic

Not really, no. KSP is a game not a historical simulator.

[herbal space program]

The PB-NUK RTG is currently right at the far end of the Tech Tree, the only item in Experimental Electrics and costing 1000 science points. Which, for a real-world technology that has been around as long as manned spaceflight, and was used for Pioneer 10 and 11 in 1973, seems wrong.

With the revision of solar panels greatly reducing their effectiveness beyond Duna-orbit, and nuclear rockets much more easily available, even though they have never flown in our real world, making them a bit less difficult to obtain looks pretty sensible to me.

Where to, I'm not sure. Specialized Electrics is obvious, where it was in v0.90, and parallels the Ion Drive technology at the same level. I think there is still a choice there, and it cuts the total science cost by 1000 points while opening up the high-science outer-planet probes.

We're talking about a technology that was in the same general timing as the large solar panels, which have kept getting bigger since, and the relatively early Pioneer units had a useful life of around 30 years.

I am going to have a look at adding a Module Manager script to shift it back to Specialized Electrics.

I totally agree with what you said, but I would add that it highlights a general problem with the current career mode: You unlock the whole tech tree so that you can do lots of different things, but once you've done that, the career game doesn't have any new goals for you. There needs to be something beyond just unlocking the tech tree in career mode. I posted my basic idea in another thread in this sub-forum, about digging up alien artifacts to get FTL technology, but it could be a lot of other stuff as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Not really, no. KSP is a game not a historical simulator.

It's one thing to invoke specific developments in history as a rationale for gameplay-compromising changes to the tech tree, but OTOH having to wait until Tier 5 to get a flippin' LADDER is just mentally challenged. Ditto lights and about half a dozen other items that really ought to available at start, because not having them is just a pain in the exhaust nozzle and contributes nothing to the idea of expanding your capabilities according to a common-sense rather than historical model.

[Tankman101]

It's one thing to invoke specific developments in history as a rationale for gameplay-compromising changes to the tech tree, but OTOH having to wait until Tier 5 to get a flippin' LADDER is just mentally challenged. Ditto lights and about half a dozen other items that really ought to available at start, because not having them is just a pain in the exhaust nozzle and contributes nothing to the idea of expanding your capabilities according to a common-sense rather than historical model.

Well I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that the tech tree doesn't have to be realistic. But since you want to discuss things like that, you don't even need ladders for most of your inner planet landings. Lights aren't even needed 90% of the time (But there's not really a point in them being high up either). A small extendable ladder could be nice at the start, but again, not really necessary.