Career questions (wings? science? stuff?)

[ibanix]

So I'm playing career for the first time.

My main problem is that with my limited technology I'm finding it very hard to to accomplish some of the goals (eg, get to Mun and land). Here's some of my issues:

1) Inline, very tall rockets (no radial/attachments) work ok at first but when really tall they become unstable. Yes, I'm using control surfaces and gimbal'd engines.

2) Rockets with radial attachment stages suffer from flexibility issues and like to wobble like mad. I don't have strut connectors yet. Are girder segments actually useful?

3) Is there an optimal number of control surfaces? The AV-R8 greatly increased my stability, but I'm unclear if it's best to use them in sets of 2, 3, 4, 6 or more.

4) Solid rockets are useful.... when? I have ended up using almost entirely LFO engines. I don't want to exceed 250-300m/s before ~10km, so I need thrust control; and for higher maneuvers I want the throttle control for orbital maneuvers. My use of SRBs has been limited to stages after 10km but before orbit, or attempts to use them for heavy lifting, but my heavy rockets are highly unstable.

5) How the hell do I get to Mun and back using only LV-T30, LV-T45, and the first three SRBs?

6) I have a bunch of possible contracts for "go to this place on Kerbin and fly below X km". Is there a clever way to set up a launch maneuver that aims at that place?

Thanks for all the help.

[Tex_NL]

It might take some time to watch all (29 episodes about 20 minutes each) but Scott Manley's 'Career Mode Guide For Beginners' can be extremely useful.

[GoSlash27]

ibanix,

My recommendation is to not bite off more than you can chew in the early going. Just collect science where you can get to it and unlock better equipment as you go.

1) Yes.

2) Occasionally. I built a pretty neat paraglider for getting on the rooftops using them. They're also good for making a stable base on early landers.

3) I always go with 4.

4) In the early going SRBs are not preferred, but they may (in some instances) be the only thing available.

5) You don't. I'd definitely wait until I've unlocked better equipment before going for a moonshot.

6) I've never tried. I build a plane and fly there.

Best,

-Slashy

[Juicy]

So I'm playing career for the first time.

My main problem is that with my limited technology I'm finding it very hard to to accomplish some of the goals (eg, get to Mun and land). Here's some of my issues:

1) Inline, very tall rockets (no radial/attachments) work ok at first but when really tall they become unstable. Yes, I'm using control surfaces and gimbal'd engines.

The solution to this one might be *less* control surfaces, spinny wheels and gimballed engines. I went from an avarage of 16 moving control surfaces to only 4, replacing the rest with rigid fins, and my rockets became less wobbly as a result. I've read from people who had similar results by disabling the gimbals on their rockets, so it's something worth experimenting I guess. Control modules can apparently be too effective and eventually reduce control instead of adding to it!

[ForScience6686]

I use srb primarily in early game. They are much cheaper and you can save you lfo engines for higher altitude and better efficiency. Don't forget to collect all the science from the ksc. One method is to radially attach boosters to a central booster and drop it all at once instead of onion staging. For rockets, I don't add fins unless I'm having ascent control issues, and I hardly use fins with control surfaces. A well balanced rocket won't need it. My new career game I'm farming as much science from kerbin before even going to the moon, I am planning on a science/miner that I can transfer to minimus once the mun is bled dry.

[Yemo]

I suggest trying another TechTree/Contract campaign/career, like SETI.

The progression is much better, especially for beginners, because

1. Useful adapters are available very early, as are rovers, struts, launch clamps and so on

2. You start with probes, which allows very small and cheap rockets. If something goes wrong, not much of your funds and your time gets lost.

3. You have early access to airplanes, eg for those survey contracts

4. The contracts actually follow a campaign, you wont get the Duna landing contract right after your first Mun mission.

edit: It really seems like the stock progression is the problem, in addition to the answers given by others to your specific questions.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Yemo

[ibanix]

6) I've never tried. I build a plane and fly there.

How do you build a plane with tech 1 and tech 2 level? I don't even have *wheels*.

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Don't forget to collect all the science from the ksc.

So I have done the goo pod, crew report, EVA report, thermometer, and sci lab; from the launch pad and from the runway. Is there other science there that I missed?

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, I think I may try this out.

I suggest trying another TechTree/Contract campaign/career, like SETI.

The progression is much better, especially for beginners, because

1. Useful adapters are available very early, as are rovers, struts, launch clamps and so on

2. You start with probes, which allows very small and cheap rockets. If something goes wrong, not much of your funds and your time gets lost.

3. You have early access to airplanes, eg for those survey contracts

4. The contracts actually follow a campaign, you wont get the Duna landing contract right after your first Mun mission.

edit: It really seems like the stock progression is the problem, in addition to the answers given by others to your specific questions.

[Yemo]

How do you build a plane with tech 1 and tech 2 level? I don't even have *wheels*.

So I have done the goo pod, crew report, EVA report, thermometer, and sci lab; from the launch pad and from the runway. Is there other science there that I missed?

Thanks, I think I may try this out.

When you try SETI, you can install KAX (KerbalAircraftExpansion) for very early propeller planes. Then you can strap a booster like a HybridRocketBooster (provided with SETI thanks to LordAurelius) to the early plane to get to those high altitudes. The HRB is a booster which can be shut off and restarted.

There are several other biomes around around KSC. With SETI, you can build a rover with 4 science total and explore the KSC, if you need more science.

[Requia]

How do you build a plane with tech 1 and tech 2 level? I don't even have *wheels*.

So I have done the goo pod, crew report, EVA report, thermometer, and sci lab; from the launch pad and from the runway. Is there other science there that I missed?

Every building has its own surface biome like the launchpad/runway, and there are other even smaller biomes within that (possibly dependent on how upgraded the buildings are).

But uh, you don't have wheels. Also its tedious as hell.

You can sometimes reduce wobble by sliding the gimbal range down to 20% or so. But long term you need those struts for boosters, so they should be your first priority.

[tutike2000]

Vertical stages get less stable the longer they are because of the center of mass shifting.

Try having more stages, that are shorter.

Parts on the same ship cannot collide with each other, so girders will not help with wobble.

Add SRBs as your first stage, attached radially. Limit their thrust in VAB so that they give you 1.0-1.5 TWR, have one liquid engine on the same stage as well so that you can control your speed.

Add as many control surfaces as you want, see what works best for your design (trial and error, sorry).

Get the kerbal engineer mod to show you VAB readouts. I can't imagine building lifters without it.

[Streetwind]

I recommend against trying something like SETI while trying to learn the game for the first time. It's a very radical overhaul. You should not need any mods to play KSP, and I say that as a mod addict They are fun additions when you want them to be, but there are many players who stick to stock and have fun too. As a new player, definitely get to know the game first. You can't appreciate the changes or options mods offer unless you know what's there by default, after all.

Regarding your question #4: You can actually throttle SRBs as well. Only in the VAB, before going to the launchpad, so it's a bit more difficult, but it works. Rightclick the SRBs after attaching and set the thrust limiter.

Also, don't be afraid of breaking the sound barrier under 10km. There's nothing inherently problematic with it - most rockets can go a lot faster at that altitude without increasing your drag losses much. The one thing to watch is whether or not your gravity turn still works out, because rockets with large fins tend to fly straight instead of turning if you go very fast low in the atmosphere. In that case you can try tipping over sooner after launch and more aggressively, or try to steer the turn manually... or use fewer/smaller fins.

The minimum number of fins you need for universal stability (roll and both lateral axes) is 3, by the way. Mounting 2 only stabilizes two axes (roll and one lateral), not all three.

[GoSlash27]

How do you build a plane with tech 1 and tech 2 level? I don't even have *wheels*.

I don't. I build planes once I have unlocked the parts.

You shouldn't feel compelled to tackle contracts that you're not technically capable of achieving yet. Find jobs that you can do and do those instead. Pick off the low hanging science fruit/ easy contracts, and you will have plenty of cash and science to unlock better parts.

That will allow you to tackle jobs like surveys, munar missions, etc. later.

Best,

-Slashy

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So I have done the goo pod, crew report, EVA report, thermometer, and sci lab; from the launch pad and from the runway. Is there other science there that I missed?

I bet you could get all the science goodies just barely out into space on a suborbital hop and recover them. Plus additional low flight and high altitude hops. That would give you easily enough science to research airplane parts, which will allow you to gather science from all over KSC, most of the Kerbin biomes, and start on those survey contracts.

Best,

-Slashy

[Requia]

Add SRBs as your first stage, attached radially. Limit their thrust in VAB so that they give you 1.0-1.5 TWR, have one liquid engine on the same stage as well so that you can control your speed.

This is literally the exact opposite of what boosters are good for. The faster you get going off the launchpad the less dV you need to get to orbit (it drops as far as 3005 vacuum dV for the way I fly), no the fact that your TWR rises as you lose fuel does not make up for this, its on the launchpad that high acceleration is the most useful, by the time you get all that TWR from fuel expenditure you already wasted a .... ton of fuel.

[GoSlash27]

The minimum number of fins you need for universal stability (roll and both lateral axes) is 3, by the way. Mounting 2 only stabilizes two axes (roll and one lateral), not all three.

That works well for passive fins, but definitely not recommended for active ones. using 3 makes it fly funny IME. Control response goes all wonky.

Best,

-Slashy

[Streetwind]

Well, on most of my rockets, even my active fins only do a little bit of pitching at the start of the gravity turn - unless I screw that up royally and need to correct, but that only happens with very unusual vehicle configurations I've never flown before.

Rockets are not planes, they do not need active control surfaces per se. They just make the pitchover slightly more convenient for veteran pilots, and increase the margin of error for newcomers.

[Warzouz]

So I have done the goo pod, crew report, EVA report, thermometer, and sci lab; from the launch pad and from the runway. Is there other science there that I missed?

You can farm a LOT of science from KSC buildings. Look in the wiki for all locations. I think there are around 15-20 biomes there (it's even ridiculous).

Early on, there is several ways to do it. The easlier is the "roller". Put 2 command pods, batteries, reactions wheel, and science. You can roll sideways until you run out of power. Target science which gets you solar power, so you can go everywhere on KSC.

Another way to do it is to create a plane core and wheels. Use the Weesley to move. You could even do a double weesley (front and rear) to avoid beeing stuck.

With all experiments, I think I got around 1000 science for KSC only (maybe more, I don't remember).

Then for quick and easy science : Build a mini space station wit half an orange tank of fuel and send it to Minmus with a light lander (try getting 1300m/s on the lander to do hops) and a return vehicle. Then alnd in every biome of minmus, do some hops if you can and refuel to the space station.

Next, do the same with Mun. the lander has only to have a bit more fuel to do hops (mine had 2000m/s, capable to visite 3 sites). On that expedition, favor a polar orbit for you space station and pack a full orange tank of fuel.

Don't be afraid to mess : it's very easy to send new landers (or upgraded with new science expermients) and more fuel. Minmus and Mun are only few days from Kerbin and there are no launch window to wait for.

Kerbin + Mun + Minmus = full tech tree unlocked.

Please note that, since 1.0, you can do "pressure scans" landed on no-atmo bodies. Don't forget it as I did...

[FancyMouse]

With the lowered cost of SRB (from 1.0.2), I start using them again, and of course first-stage only. I once thought I didn't want to go too fast too low, but now it seems terminal velocity is bumping up really quickly, so I just have 1.5+ atm TWR on pad, do my gravity turn as early as possible and usually I see a lot of reentry effect during my ascent, and it seems it gives me a good dV

[ajburges]

I find that for vertically stacked tanks, disabling fuel flow of (or transferring fuel to) the top tank until another nears depletion radically helps stability. Also, fairings have ridiculously low drag and the mass could be enough to ensure stability.

My first Mun mission of 1.0 was just a flyby with as much science as I could grab (three new space locations and EVA over munar land). Do a retrograde flyby so you can perform a free return trajectory for even lower dV requirements.

[Sharpy]

Minmus and Mun are only few days from Kerbin and there are no launch window to wait for.

Nitpicking - More precisely - the optimal transfer window happens every 32 minutes game time.

[tutike2000]

This is literally the exact opposite of what boosters are good for. The faster you get going off the launchpad the less dV you need to get to orbit (it drops as far as 3005 vacuum dV for the way I fly), no the fact that your TWR rises as you lose fuel does not make up for this, its on the launchpad that high acceleration is the most useful, by the time you get all that TWR from fuel expenditure you already wasted a .... ton of fuel.

Well, I was thinking that you would get 1.0 TWR from SRBs alone. With Liquid engines you'd have 2.0-2.5 or more on the launchpad.

SRBs are also useful when your VAB isn't upgraded, so you can make a stage using half the usual part count (1 SRB instead of 1 tank + 1 engine)

[ajburges]

Well, I was thinking that you would get 1.0 TWR from SRBs alone. With Liquid engines you'd have 2.0-2.5 or more on the launchpad.

SRBs are also useful when your VAB isn't upgraded, so you can make a stage using half the usual part count (1 SRB instead of 1 tank + 1 engine)

I usually aim for a launch TWR of 3 with SRB aid. As long as I don't (or barely) break terminal velocity I'm happy. That much thrust does make the initial pitch over a little finicky though.

Like others, my initial career game focused on launch pad, suborbital, and splashdown science to get enough parts to harvest the KSC science. With that I could do a Mun orbit for the parts needed for a very solid multi landing expedition. At that point I had a good selection of parts (Nukes an Whiplashes) while still 200 days from Duna launch window.

Having tinkered with it I can definitely recommend the paraglider for KSC science. Two parachutes and your jet won't pass 10 m/s. Angle the jet 40 or so degrees down and it's surprisingly maneuverable. To bad you need an experienced engineer for one capable of multiple flights, but less than 1 k funds per flight is dead cheap for the science.