RTS-like contracts

[Wjolcz]

I'm not sure how to present this, but you know how in RTS games there's an objective and once you complete it another one pops out based on what or how well you did?

So what I would like is a new type of contract. One that simply says "Explore this place". You go there and the contract status gets marked as completed, or half completed. Then the contract expands with new objectives like "There's an interesting spot 2km away from your landing site. Go find out what's so interesting about it!" Of course some objectives would be optional or time-based with or without penalties.

Bascially: Main (simpler) objective achieved leads to another (more complicated) one.

Maybe if the whole contract system would be redesigned to work like this the contracts tab would be less cluttered, messy and chaotic. Paired with vessel spawns (more complicated ones like abandoned space stations of the rival space program or ore haulers, or even abandoned surface outposts) it could lead to more interesting missions than we have now. Also people who want to do more than just land on a planet, or are interested in finding more easter eggs/surface structures would finally have an opportunity for an unexpected space adventure.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Veeltch

[KrazyKrl]

While having the expanding contracts would work for a game where you can send units out in a few seconds... It takes days in KSP-time to send out a rover to the Mun; let along further planets like Duna. But I do agree that there needs to be some sort of thread that ties together the contracts system. Maybe even some sort of science archives UI for the contracts screen.

The contracts need to have the parameters spelled out when accepted; because KSP (and spaceflight) is all about design and planning your mission. It's no fun to get an early career lander to the Mun, that has barely enough dV to go home; only to unlock "go check out that crater 20km away for another 50,000 funds!".

[Feradose]

The contracts need to have the parameters spelled out when accepted; because KSP (and spaceflight) is all about design and planning your mission. It's no fun to get an early career lander to the Mun, that has barely enough dV to go home; only to unlock "go check out that crater 20km away for another 50,000 funds!".

I think that should be in the "optional" list, but even better, the game should calculate the amount of deltaV (and twr and electrical capabilities) you have currently, and pick some contracts considering those and give it a margin of error for time related Dv changes from a contract list.

[Alshain]

I kind of like the idea, but really it should be only EVA capable additional tasks. Even calculating Delta V like Kweller suggests probably wouldn't be a very good idea because that left over fuel is for getting home, and the game can't know what you planned for the return trip.

[Grumman]

I'd also like to see optional objectives added to the game. Have some that are known from the start ("Launch a space station. Get paid extra if it includes a viewing cupola.") and some that are hidden behind other objectives ("Take John Kerman to Minmus orbit." Then once you get there "Get paid extra if you put John Kerman's ship in *this* orbit.")

I kind of like the idea, but really it should be only EVA capable additional tasks.

I do not agree. Failing to complete an optional objective you haven't planned for should be an acceptable end result. That's why it's optional.

[Alshain]

I do not agree. Failing to complete an optional objective you haven't planned for should be an acceptable end result. That's why it's optional.

Then I withdraw my support and disagree with the idea. I don't pack extra fuel for unknown missions. I pack enough fuel to do the planned mission like a real space program.

[Grumman]

Then I withdraw my support and disagree with the idea. I don't pack extra fuel for unknown missions. I pack enough fuel to do the planned mission like a real space program.

You have no excuse for holding this position. The whole point of being optional objectives is that it supports both approaches. The game offering you an optional bonus objective does nothing to stop you simply ignoring it and running the exact same mission you would if you were not offered this optional bonus objective.

[Alshain]

You have no excuse for holding this position. The whole point of being optional objectives is that it supports both approaches. The game offering you an optional bonus objective does nothing to stop you simply ignoring it and running the exact same mission you would if you were not offered this optional bonus objective.

I do have an excuse. Having a list of "optional" missions in my list that will never be completed or even attempted would be irritating to me and would be bad game design.

[Wjolcz]

I do have an excuse. Having a list of "optional" missions in my list that will never be completed or even attempted would be irritating to me and would be bad game design.

It could be easily dealt with if "Complete this mission" option was introduced. You don't do the optional objective that popped out after the completion of main objective? That's alright. Click "Complete this contract" and get paid for the main objective only.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Veeltch

[KrazyKrl]

It could be easily dealt with if "Complete this mission" option was introduced. You don't do the optional objective that popped out after the completion of main objective? That's alright. Click "Complete this contract" and get paid for the main objective only.

If this was a game with less planning for missions, I would agree. But anything hidden until the mission is in progress seems like bad design. If your contracts start giving you hidden optional objectives, you'll start feeling like the game is screwing you out of resources; just because you built your rocket to meet the standard contract.

[Wjolcz]

If this was a game with less planning for missions, I would agree. But anything hidden until the mission is in progress seems like bad design. If your contracts start giving you hidden optional objectives, you'll start feeling like the game is screwing you out of resources; just because you built your rocket to meet the standard contract.

I guess you're right, but remember Opportunity? It did way more than it was designed for, because it literally had an opportunity do more. So maybe if the contract recognized your vessel has wheels and is landed it would give you an extra objective within 1km radius, or so. Just for some extra science or cash.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Veeltch

[KrazyKrl]

I guess you're right, but remember Opportunity? It did way more than it was designed for, because it literally had an opportunity do more. So maybe if the contract recognized your vessel has wheels and is landed it would give you an extra objective within 1km radius, or so. Just for some extra science or cash.

Maybe if the contract also gave you a grab-bag of optional, selectable; tertiary objectives to meet when you sign the contract. I have no idea how KSP could be programmed to figure out how you're going to use your rocket to give you other objectives. What happens if the wheels are just designed to drive up and dock a spacebase on the Mun; and not for actual roving? What if that extra dV is going to be used for suicide burn retro rockets? The game can't know everything you're possibly going to do.

[Wjolcz]

Maybe if the contract also gave you a grab-bag of optional, selectable; tertiary objectives to meet when you sign the contract. I have no idea how KSP could be programmed to figure out how you're going to use your rocket to give you other objectives. What happens if the wheels are just designed to drive up and dock a spacebase on the Mun; and not for actual roving? What if that extra dV is going to be used for suicide burn retro rockets? The game can't know everything you're possibly going to do.

That's why I think that extra objective should be optional. No punishment if you don't do something that wasn't really considered in plans when launching the mission.

[Grumman]

So maybe if the contract recognized your vessel has wheels and is landed it would give you an extra objective within 1km radius, or so.

Or it just told you to put wheels on your surface base, as it does. Or it could give you the objective while you're still in orbit, to give you time to plan for a landing in the new LZ.

[Kegereneku]

The problem I see with this suggestion is that adding EXTRA objective (to a current contract) would be forceful on the players.

Like, you achieved the job, and suddenly it's not good enough ? Even if it is justifiable to pursue exploration further, the choice to continue or to do something else must be left to the Players.

Still I have an equivalent idea.

If the Contract ever get re-filtered, they could propose mission without unnecessary fine-print generated in the intent of helping the player.

Example :

- A player sent a Manned mission to the surface of the Mun.

- A contract appear to pay you (or give science/rep) to landing a "rover" anywhere (optionally on the Mun, as long as it's not a Specific Survey)

- You are now encouraged to send a rover to your (next?) mun mission.

another :

- A player sent a spaceplane to orbit with cargo. (I pretty think they can track this, reliably)

- A contract appear for roughly for a dozen of tourists (1/2 flights worth)

Last (assuming there is ever an stock AntennaRange) :

- Player don't have a satellite relay

- Mission appear to put a satellite at the right place with the right equipment.

[Wjolcz]

Like, you achieved the job, and suddenly it's not good enough ? Even if it is justifiable to pursue exploration further, the choice to continue or to do something else must be left to the Players.

Did you read the whole thread? In the next posts after OP I stated exactly this. You either do the extra objective or change the contract's status to "Done", and don't get the extra objective science/money.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Veeltch

[Alshain]

I guess you're right, but remember Opportunity? It did way more than it was designed for, because it literally had an opportunity do more. So maybe if the contract recognized your vessel has wheels and is landed it would give you an extra objective within 1km radius, or so. Just for some extra science or cash.

The difference is opportunity runs exclusively on solar power and it doesn't have to come back to Earth. What you are suggesting more like deciding now that New Horizons has passed Pluto we should go back and examine Neptune with it. Or like after Apollo 11 landed on the Moon, if they asked Neil to just pick up and move the craft around to the other side (which is actually quite a good comparison because he had 0 fuel when he touched down).

Like I said, this could work if it were EVA only and the mission "extras" occurred within the range of EVA travel. It "might" work for rovers, but honestly exploration rovers are boring in KSP and I never do those contracts as it is so unless they added some kind of computerized rover automation like the real thing, I don't see the point. Rovers in this game just really suck.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Alshain

[Grumman]

Or like after Apollo 11 landed on the Moon, if they asked Neil to just pick up and move the craft around to the other side (which is actually quite a good comparison because he had 0 fuel when he touched down).

But the only reason why Apollo 11 had 0 fuel when it touched down is because the mission parameters did change partway through the mission.

[Alshain]

But the only reason why Apollo 11 had 0 fuel when it touched down is because the mission parameters did change partway through the mission.

Except that possibility was planned for, long before the mission was launched. That is why it did have enough fuel and they didn't have to abort.

[SyberSmoke]

My my...people are just trying to hard with this discussion. It has turned into bickering... Missions, as they are right now a player designs the craft to do that thing and that thing only. Fine, cool, that is what the game dictates really. But if you look at mission planning in RL, they design the ship, add in some wiggle room (like 10% more fuel as a buffer), choose what they want to accomplish (collect rocks from the moon), and plan a time frame (collecting rocks should take x hours).

It is that time frame that is the key really as it determines, or is determined by, the return window for the flight. If the crew get their task done before time is up and they have to leave...then additional things come up like...testing the most efficient way to walk on the moon.

So here is my smart arsed idea. Instead of adding additional objectives that may or may not make the player feel bad (does the game REALLY need to hand out gold stars?? Are we 5 years old again?), what about having a set of open ended objectives. So say a mission where you need to run some scans from low orbit. Once your done, the mission could have an open objective to collect more science...or data. The data from other experiments could then be calculated into a reward.

So the mission could be "Have Jeb make three EVA reports from Low Orbit of the Muns Biomes". After that is done, an open objective could be each additional report can earn X money, and/or Y Science, and/or Z Reputation. Make it more a "While I am there thing" than a "you did not pack this...you miss out...no sticker for you :-P".

Edited July 16, 2015 by SyberSmoke

[Alshain]

My my...people are just trying to hard with this discussion. It has turned into bickering...

bicker

verb (used without object) 1. to engage in petulant or peevish argument; wrangle:

discuss

verb (used without object) 1. to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc.; talk over or write about, especially to explore solutions; debate:

Having a difference of opinion and talking about it is not bickering.

[Wjolcz]

My my...people are just trying to hard with this discussion. It has turned into bickering... Missions, as they are right now a player designs the craft to do that thing and that thing only. Fine, cool, that is what the game dictates really. But if you look at mission planning in RL, they design the ship, add in some wiggle room (like 10% more fuel as a buffer), choose what they want to accomplish (collect rocks from the moon), and plan a time frame (collecting rocks should take x hours).

It is that time frame that is the key really as it determines, or is determined by, the return window for the flight. If the crew get their task done before time is up and they have to leave...then additional things come up like...testing the most efficient way to walk on the moon.

So here is my smart arsed idea. Instead of adding additional objectives that may or may not make the player feel bad (does the game REALLY need to hand out gold stars?? Are we 5 years old again?), what about having a set of open ended objectives. So say a mission where you need to run some scans from low orbit. Once your done, the mission could have an open objective to collect more science...or data. The data from other experiments could then be calculated into a reward.

So the mission could be "Have Jeb make three EVA reports from Low Orbit of the Muns Biomes". After that is done, an open objective could be each additional report can earn X money, and/or Y Science, and/or Z Reputation. Make it more a "While I am there thing" than a "you did not pack this...you miss out...no sticker for you :-P".

THIS is what I meant the whole time. The problem is english is not my native languague and I probably wasn't clear enough about the idea.

[SyberSmoke]

THIS is what I meant the whole time. The problem is english is not my native languague and I probably wasn't clear enough about the idea.

Glad I got the idea right. Funny thing is...the people that are arguing against are forgetting a key point as well. This is a mod and not stock content, no one is twisting their arms off to use it. So if people want the added objectives and are happy with not being a truculent completionist, then why deny them? After all mods are about choices and altering the game to suit our play styles...they need not apply to all.

Edited July 16, 2015 by SyberSmoke

[r4pt0r]

THIS is what I meant the whole time. The problem is english is not my native languague and I probably wasn't clear enough about the idea.

I like the Idea. After the primary objective is complete the potential to do some bonus stuff sounds great. Like how New Horizons is MISSION ACCOMPLISHEDâ„¢, but as a bonus can still do more science as it heads into the kuiper belt

"We have a chance to go further and explore the deep reaches of the heliosphere, like Voyager did, and to do that with much more modern instruments," Stern said, "and hopefully return data that will really add to the storehouse of what we know about our environment in the solar system.

Around the end of October, the spacecraft will change its course toward one of two targets. The unnamed targets, which scientists have spent a lot of time searching for, are located in the Kuiper Belt - a region of the solar system beyond the known planets.

Really I support any change to the current contract system, career needs an overhaul anyway.

[Kegereneku]

Did you read the whole thread? In the next posts after OP I stated exactly this. You either do the extra objective or change the contract's status to "Done", and don't get the extra objective science/money.

English isn't my first langage either but there's no need to be overly defensive.

What you said (up to now, because yes I read) simply don't change what I wrote. By adding potentially limitless duration to a mission you risk depriving the players from the satisfaction of having achieved a token mission, no matter if he got the money/science. It is basic Game design and it trump reality.

Also I would have proposed an alternative anyway.

The Open-ended Mission proposal/rewording by Sybersmoke is... interesting. But it can fail on some points, docking allow for powerfully modular design which can be hard to track, leading to either potential Exploit or I imagine dead-end where the players can't get mission for new things because they are included or would be achieved by Extra optional sub-objective.

I do think Career's contract could be heavily refiltered, made intelligent, and ditch the cartooney fake-industry. But not everything would be better.