anshortage of Atmospheric bodies

[Wjolcz]

So ignoring tater for now because he'd rather nit pic issues of linguistics over issues of game balance.

Any way I did some digging and found this. http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/00/sbir/phase1/SBIR-00-1-03.02-8730.html apparently useing co2 (like what makes up the majority of mars and Venus atmosphere) as an oxidizer is a real concept.

CO2 is a safe, non-cryogenic, non-toxic oxidizer.

non-toxic oxidizer

non-toxic

WHO WROTE THIS!?

Wouldn't that be simply ISRU? I'm really badly educated when it comes to chemistry, so can anyone confirm those 'fuels' (B2H6, B5H9, SiH4, LiBH4, Al(BH4)3, H2, Mg, NH3 or N2H4) would burn (when combined with gaseous CO2) in a way that would allow for controlled combustion?

I still think that electric propellers are the way to go.

EDIT: So looks like it's possible (at least with hydrogen): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

Edited August 23, 2015 by Veeltch

[tater]

There you go making me feel bad for reporting your earlier antics oh well I'm sure the mods will see the whole matter as petty and dismiss it.

Reporting someone for disagreeing with you? Wow, just wow.

[Red Iron Crown]

Please drop the discussion of reporting and moderation.

[passinglurker]

CO2 is a safe, non-cryogenic, non-toxic oxidizer.

non-toxic oxidizer

non-toxic

WHO WROTE THIS!?

well they say NO2 is a non-toxic oxidizer but I wouldn't recommend you drink it straight either even if it does breaks down into breathable atmosphere. just think "relative to hydrazine" or "won't melt you"

Wouldn't that be simply ISRU? I'm really badly educated when it comes to chemistry, so can anyone confirm those 'fuels' (B2H6, B5H9, SiH4, LiBH4, Al(BH4)3, H2, Mg, NH3 or N2H4) would burn (when combined with gaseous CO2) in a way that would allow for controlled combustion?

I still think that electric propellers are the way to go.

sih4(saline) is used to start supersonic ram jets I'd assume it's combustible enough without going out of control and killing you. I also spy magnesium on that list which is also considered a very reactive element I imagine that would be in a hybrid rocket though, and of course h2 is hydrogen it reacts with most anything its the harem protagonist of the periodic table after all(aaand now that mental image has scarred you for life) but it's expensive to make which is why on earth we only use it with O2 during launches in order to get the most out of it, but really this is kerbal there is no need to get so picky about the molecular construction of our propellants.

electric propellers meanwhile would need to much power to run straight off rtg's or solar panels duna is too far from the sun and eve's atmosphere is too dense and curbs solar efficiency as well (thank the new thermo-model) you could conceivably do short hops with very small craft using batteries that are recharged slowly by your weak solar panels but practically speaking your best bet is fuel cells which ultimately have limited range at which point why not use a jet if it would be allowed to work?

either way I see easy unlimited range electric props to be unbalancing you could use them to make super easy biome hoppers that win career mode in one fell swoop

[Wjolcz]

either way I see easy unlimited range electric props to be unbalancing you could use them to make super easy biome hoppers that win career mode in one fell swoop

Why not both? Electric props and ISRU converter able to make fuel out of atmosphere?

Electric propeller is still a better idea than magical jet engines.

Also the text mentions CO2 to be non-toxic, not NO2.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Veeltch

[passinglurker]

Why not both? Electric props and ISRU converter able to make fuel out of atmosphere?

Electric propeller is still a better idea than magical jet engines.

Also the text mentions CO2 to be non-toxic, not NO2.

There could be room for jets and props it would simply be a matter of balancing the stats so that one doesn't make the other redundant(why use jets when props work anywhere while jets can't?).

Is it really so magical relative to anything else in kerbal? In real life they would change the fuel to one that burns CO2 as an oxidizer maybe optimize the shape for the density of atmosphere and change the materials if the old ones can't take the heat or corrosiveness, but thankfully in kerbal all resources and materials are portrayed in an abstract manner like how we don't fuss over hydrogen vs. kerosene in our nuke engines so we don't need to worry about it. To the player it would simply appear that there was oxygen in the planet's atmosphere all along they just needed to figure out how to tune their engines to use it surely stock jet engines are rugged marvels if they can be transported through the vacuum of space and flown on laythe which while also an oxygen atmosphere still isn't identical to kerbin yet we still don't need specialized jets.

EDIT: I meant people say that about NO2 in general not the paper

[Grumman]

Why not just let our current jets work anywhere?

Because that means removing a mission type from the game, and that is bad. Worlds without an atmosphere, worlds with an oxygenless atmosphere and worlds with an atmosphere where air-breathing engines function all pose different challenges with different solutions, so removing one of the three makes the game smaller.

[passinglurker]

Because that means removing a mission type from the game, and that is bad. Worlds without an atmosphere, worlds with an oxygenless atmosphere and worlds with an atmosphere where air-breathing engines function all pose different challenges with different solutions, so removing one of the three makes the game smaller.

Now if off world performance was tied to building upgrades what would you say? Missions to atmospheres where jets don't work would still exist, and you get more use out of the jets when you ultimately unlock the ability.

[Wjolcz]

Now if off world performance was tied to building upgrades what would you say? Missions to atmospheres where jets don't work would still exist, and you get more use out of the jets when you ultimately unlock the ability.

Sorry to say that, but you seem to defend your 'magical jet' idea too hard. It's really not a good thing to have jets running on oxygen and oxygenless atmospheres.

It could be compared to a rocket engine that is upgraded to a point where it almost doesn't consume any fuel and yet it maintains the same level of max thrust.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Veeltch

[tater]

The problem is not that a jet of roughly the same size/cost might b able to burn an alternate fuel, the problem is that the same engine would be used on 4 different worlds equally well.

We can make a ducted fan that works in the air, and we can make one that works underwater. Having the same plane also fly just as well underwater is the problem.

[passinglurker]

The problem is not that a jet of roughly the same size/cost might b able to burn an alternate fuel, the problem is that the same engine would be used on 4 different worlds equally well.

We can make a ducted fan that works in the air, and we can make one that works underwater. Having the same plane also fly just as well underwater is the problem.

"Equally well" isn't a good way to put it some jets are good high some are good low some different worlds are like flying that altitude all the time take the basic jet to duna you'll be in for a bad time take the turbo ram jet to eve and you could wind up stock at sea level. If someone can make a universal plane kudos to them but it won't really be practical

[tater]

I don't like the idea of "universal" anything, frankly.

What I mean is that the same engine that made some pixie-dust SSTO plane fly to orbit from kerbin then does the same on another world with the same engine. An engine tuned for Duna would work... on Duna.

I'm talking one burning the atmosphere.

Now, for a nuclear ramjet, they would work differently on different bodies, but just because the mass of propellant would vary. The engine doesn't care what you chuck out the back. In thin atmospheres, you could throw your own propellant in, as well, actually (ending up with an NTR).

Honestly, for a jet that works most anywhere, that's the ticket.