Math and science skills as adults are protective

[Slam_Jones]

They do spell it that way.

American and British spellings are a bit different too.

Ah, I knew they spell color as "colour" and such, but I guess I figured scientific terms were universal. Shows what I know

[Darnok]

I am confused, what this thread is about?

[peadar1987]

Ah, I knew they spell color as "colour" and such, but I guess I figured scientific terms were universal. Shows what I know

We also spell "sulphur" like, well... "sulphur".

[PB666]

There's a near total denial that the word "soccer" actually DID originate in the U.K. Everyone loves to blame the U.S. for it.

And yet, nobody ever seems to ask, "Why are you referring to Rugby as Football?"

American Football is rugby, literally, on steroids. I am not sure why we call it football, I think its because it distinguishes itself from rugby in the manner in which the ball is kicked-off and because of field goals and extra-point kicks.

We call basketball such but there is no basket.

We call Great Britain, but more than half the countries in the world are larger.

How many countries have a parliment but have no king or queen?

The Chief official in the parliment is a prime minister, but he has no clergy, no flock.

What about the foreign minister, but he is not foreignor does he minister.

Is Westminster abbey really an Abbey?

You have a house of commons, but they are anything but; it is filled with bombastic eclectics and eccentrics.

Scotland yard is the name of the London metropolitan police, the actual alleyway I don't think exists anymore.

You have stone henge, but they are actually megaliths, and I haven't seen a hinge yet.

You would think we Americans would make a fuss about all of this, but since we inherited the English language from jolly ole england, we are pretty acclimatized.

Funny names of stuff seen in the Beeb.

Man United. Now that's a new slant on football

Beefeater.

Prince of Wales is actually from the house of Windsor, his father is Greek. All of his ancestors on his mothers side are continental, can't think of one that was welch, and I don't think they speak welch.

A Cow is a female of any large mammal, but generally means a female Ox, a male Ox is called a bull, but a singular Ox of unknown ... is almost never called an Ox, small plurality and not called Oxes or Oxen but Cows. Many Ox are called Cattle, unless there are two of them and they are pulling a cart in which case they are called Oxen. The cart is called and Ox-cart, which completely explains the origin of the word Lorry. Either a fish or a womans name. Oh no, its a truck of any variety.

Oh, we americans have really messed up the English language, so, so sorry, lol.

[Tex_NL]

I am confused, what this thread is about?

Post 1 was about poor adult math and science skills. Post 2 and pretty much everything else was about improper grammar and spelling.

WHO CARES ABOUT PROPER GRAMMAR AND SPELLING? Most people here can barely spell anyway. GET THE FRAG BACK ON TOPIC!

[LordFerret]

The two go hand in hand there Tex.

- - - Updated - - -

...

We call basketball such but there is no basket.

...

In the beginning, yes, there was a basket (literally, a peach basket). Check out some basketball history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_basketball

[peadar1987]

American Football is rugby, literally, on steroids. I am not sure why we call it football, I think its because it distinguishes itself from rugby in the manner in which the ball is kicked-off and because of field goals and extra-point kicks.

We call basketball such but there is no basket.

There originally was a basket.

We call Great Britain, but more than half the countries in the world are larger.

The union of England and Wales was called "Britain". When Scotland joined, the name for the expanded union was "Greater Britain" to distinguish the new entity from the union of England and Wales

How many countries have a parliment but have no king or queen?

"Parliament" comes from the French "parler", which means to speak, or discuss. A parliament is a place of discussion, and has little to do with whether or not the head of state is a hereditary monarch.

The Chief official in the parliment is a prime minister, but he has no clergy, no flock.

Minister comes from the old French "ministre", meaning a servant. A minister of government was supposedly a servant of the crown. A religious minister is supposedly a servant of God. There's no implication that a minister of government must be religious.

What about the foreign minister, but he is not foreignor does he minister.

See above for discussion of the word minister. "Foreign" refers to his remit, and is not a description of the minister himself.

Is Westminster abbey really an Abbey?

For hundreds of years, it was. Not really a problem with the English language that the name stuck after it became a cathedral.

You have a house of commons, but they are anything but; it is filled with bombastic eclectics and eccentrics.

The name is to distinguish it from the house of Lords, which was, and still is, an unelected upper house. The Commons was the branch of government drawn from the common people, i.e. those who were not hereditary peers.

Scotland yard is the name of the London metropolitan police, the actual alleyway I don't think exists anymore.

Scotland Yard is the name of a place, not a police force. Again, not an issue with the English language, there is any number of reasons why the street could have been associated with Scotland.

You have stone henge, but they are actually megaliths, and I haven't seen a hinge yet.

Megaliths are large stones. The origins of the "henge" part of the name are murky.

You would think we Americans would make a fuss about all of this, but since we inherited the English language from jolly ole england, we are pretty acclimatized.

Funny names of stuff seen in the Beeb.

Man United. Now that's a new slant on football

Manchester United. After the town where they play? What exactly is wrong with abbreviating "Manchester" to "Man."?

Beefeater.

Of uncertain origin.

Prince of Wales is actually from the house of Windsor, his father is Greek. All of his ancestors on his mothers side are continental, can't think of one that was welch, and I don't think they speak welch.

Welsh. But you're right, this is a strange one, mired in centuries of strange traditions.

A Cow is a female of any large mammal, but generally means a female Ox, a male Ox is called a bull, but a singular Ox of unknown ... is almost never called an Ox, small plurality and not called Oxes or Oxen but Cows. Many Ox are called Cattle, unless there are two of them and they are pulling a cart in which case they are called Oxen. The cart is called and Ox-cart, which completely explains the origin of the word Lorry. Either a fish or a womans name. Oh no, its a truck of any variety.

Oxen are cattle that have been trained as working animals. If it doesn't pull a cart or let you ride it, it's not an ox. (Confusingly, musk oxen are not technically oxen by definition).

Oh, we americans have really messed up the English language, so, so sorry, lol.

The point is, language is weird, and people shouldn't be snobby about how other nations use it.

Post 1 was about poor adult math and science skills. Post 2 and pretty much everything else was about improper grammar and spelling.

WHO CARES ABOUT PROPER GRAMMAR AND SPELLING? Most people here can barely spell anyway. GET THE FRAG BACK ON TOPIC!

Proper grammar and spelling are important if, like most people, you don't want to read complete word vomit.

[Camacha]

Proper grammar and spelling are important if, like most people, you don't want to read complete word vomit.

I totally agree that proper grammar and spelling are vital. However, this is not the discussion here. People are getting hung up on local differences in English. That is not a matter of proper spelling, just of geography and not being sensible about some people pronouncing or calling things differently. Our English is better! No, our English is better! Both are correct, get over yourselves. I would argue that it would be best to use (either) one form of English as consistently as possible for yourself, but even that is not required.

Now, this thread was about science and mathematics being vital tools in anyone's life as an adult, but that topic has been left absolutely untouched.

Heres a brit that explains all that

Somewhat unrelated, though related: there is a common practice among people like programmers that if they get stuck with a certain problem, they explain it to themselves (or famously, to a rubber duck) like you would explain it to someone or something else. The mental exercise this provides often reveals something you overlooked before.

Thinking like a Martian is very much the same thing.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Camacha

[Gaarst]

Now, this thread was about science and mathematics being vital tools in anyone's life as an adult, but that topic has been left absolutely untouched.

I find it amusing that, in a forum composed of rocket science adepts and mostly people interested in sciences, a topic discussing maths and science education ends up being about grammar and English language in 2 posts...

Anyway, I don't know much about high school and A-levels in the UK, but the problem that the article suggests to solve by teaching more mathsand science (yes "maths", please don't start that again) could, IMO, be solved by actually teaching more practical stuff that could help making these "good decisions in their private life".

Thing is, determining the nature of this practical stuff is the problem. The article talks about making a baccalaureate style exam (it is not actualy only about teaching science *clickbait title*), but having a general exam might not be the solution to this problem: in France, for example, where we have a very general "baccalauréat", the same kind of debate come up from time to time, and the opposite solution is suggested for the "students are not specialised enough" problem.

So, once more, in an educational issue, nobody will agree, and debates will go on forever, and thus my post was useless. Thank you for reading

[PB666]

Somewhat unrelated, though related: there is a common practice among people like programmers that if they get stuck with a certain problem, they explain it to themselves (or famously, to a rubber duck) like you would explain it to someone or something else. The mental exercise this provides often reveals something you overlooked before.

Thinking like a Martian is very much the same thing.

Well, i mean what can be said, looking at myself, if everyone were a programmer how screwed up the world would be. I mean thing of the 2008 financial crisis on speed and steroids. Oh and lets make sure they all have physics ph. D.s. That would never go wrong. lol.

There was an article the other day that basically argues that great thinking lead to neuroticism. lol.

[Darnok]

Proper grammar and spelling are important if, like most people, you don't want to read complete word vomit.

IMO talking on topic is importanter

This ""Citizens need to be empowered to make good decisions in their private lives - be it about vaccinations, mobile phone masts or climate change," she will tell the festival, at Bradford University. " - looks more like spreading propaganda than education.

"We need to change mindsets of teachers and parents alike," she will say, "to ensure that both genders get equal airtime in the classroom, that boys don't hog the apparatus." - not this again, if they are going to force children to do things they dislike just because someone things girls are as good at math as boys it is going to do more harm than good.

Taught mathematics, analytical thinking and that specialization is not such a good idea.

You have to develop in many areas at the same time to be able to understand how the entire mechanisms works and what will be impact of that mechanism on your life and environment, not just a very narrow fragment of mechanism like we are taught today.

Students should also be taught that what makes them different from animals is the ability to predict the results of their own actions. Even more they can also predict activities of the society in which they live. If today people can not predict what impact on their lives will have change of the law, means they are uneducated on how society and laws making are working.

[RainDreamer]

Huh, growing up from a country where the state dictates education programs for all children...I kind of think there might be a reason for it now. It does make me really hate some of the stuff I was studying, but in the end, I got a basic ground of knowledge to not do stupid things, so...it somewhat works out? Still hate the propaganda crap they feed us kids in ethics classes, now that I grew up and look back. Can't deny that getting compulsory physics, chemistry and math education did me a lot of good things though.

[Skyler4856]

What the hell guys, focus on the post

[PB666]

Huh, growing up from a country where the state dictates education programs for all children...I kind of think there might be a reason for it now. It does make me really hate some of the stuff I was studying, but in the end, I got a basic ground of knowledge to not do stupid things, so...it somewhat works out? Still hate the propaganda crap they feed us kids in ethics classes, now that I grew up and look back. Can't deny that getting compulsory physics, chemistry and math education did me a lot of good things though.

The problem in the US, is that we are not all created equal in the eyes of the collective educational system. Some districts do not get sufficient funding, for example to replace text books, in the case of one school district here they were using they same text books for 40 years. (and 30 years ago, that is the books of people who will start retiring soom, I actually saw the highscool texts and they were in appaullingly bad shape) The legal system finally intervened calling the educational system unconstitutional but reform has been slow beyond belief because the general attitude of conservatives in the state is that if peoples kids are not being educated its their own fault. The tech industry has basically said, if you want us to move jobs here you better start teaching STEM. And so NOW their is an economic incentive from the urban conservatives, but rural conservatives still hold on to a 19th century value system. So who is taking the high TECH jobs, here in the US many of those jobs are being assummed by people who are educated overseas, in the biomedical science the overwhelming majority of PH. D. candidates are either non-citizens or the children of immigrants. This does not bode well for the countries future, in comparison with the 60 and 70s there has been a massive decline of participation.

So the question is why has this occurred. The major reason is a relative decline in resources going to publically funded science relative to GDP, highly competitive funding and unreliable incomes.

Edited September 10, 2015 by PB666

[Cydonian Monk]

What the hell guys, focus on the post

Given that it's a poorly written advertisement about an upcoming conference speech from a government-run news source that hints at changing education systems both in and outside of the UK, I think discussing the wording choices they've made is, in fact, focusing on the post. If perhaps a bit too literally so. I would also point out that linguistics is itself a science, and the mastery of language is as important to a career in a scientific field as is the mastery of math. If you are incapable of communicating your findings then no one can ever hope to reproduce or make any use of them.

My first response when I read a less vapid version of this article was to ask for an unbiased source. Even this article has a real winner of a lead-in quote, with "Adults who lack basic science... [risk] making bad decisions, according to a leading scientist." What kind of scientist? A behaviorologist? Someone perhaps qualified to dictate what kinds of education will produce the best, most well-rounded citizens? No, she's a theoretical physicist working in a field that is borderline biology. Not that she's necessarily wrong, but her method for preventing the split of humanity into two subspecies, into her "sheeps and goats," is to make everyone a goat.

Perhaps this thread has not focused on the post because, aside from its veiled accusations at the evils of men, it says next to nothing? The 2014 article this article links to is actually a nice piece that not only discusses the same problem but even touches on possible solutions. This article is just conference spam.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Cydonian Monk
Removed an 'a'.

[PB666]

Oxen are cattle that have been trained as working animals. If it doesn't pull a cart or let you ride it, it's not an ox. (Confusingly, musk oxen are not technically oxen by definition).

I need to correct this, though why is a matter of compulsion. An Ox is the proper name of Bos taurids including T1 taurids which we mistakenly call cows. The Auroch, Bos taurus premigenious is properly the European Wild Ox in its description. If i was to refer to a tibetian domesticated ox, thet would be a yak. The indian domesticated ox is the zebu and other varieties. The fact that we don't use the word Ox at all levels of American or English societies show the pervasiveness of colloquialisms. The tradition of the use of the word cow comes from the fact that a herd of cattle, used to define livestock, is largely made up of females, males between one and two years of age are culled to keep meat quality from declining. The females are allowed to age a produce offspring or milk.

Edited September 10, 2015 by PB666

[Tex_NL]

...

Proper grammar and spelling are important if, like most people, you don't want to read complete word vomit.

Sure, proper grammar and spelling have their merit. But people are forgetting we're dealing with a multilingual community here. You CAN NOT expect everybody to be perfect especially since there are an overwhelming amount of non-native English speaking people here who are more fluent than many native English speaking people.

I could go on about this a long time but that's not what this topic is about. 90% of the off topic banter is a about it but the OP is not!

[peadar1987]

IMO talking on topic is importanter

This ""Citizens need to be empowered to make good decisions in their private lives - be it about vaccinations, mobile phone masts or climate change," she will tell the festival, at Bradford University. " - looks more like spreading propaganda than education.

It's about scientific literacy. If you think vaccines cause autism, mobile phone masts will give you cancer, or that anthropogenic climate change is not happening, you are scientifically illiterate. Teaching basic science and a little critical thinking isn't propaganda.

"We need to change mindsets of teachers and parents alike," she will say, "to ensure that both genders get equal airtime in the classroom, that boys don't hog the apparatus." - not this again, if they are going to force children to do things they dislike just because someone things girls are as good at math as boys it is going to do more harm than good.

Girls are just as good at maths as boys. Every reputable study ever carried out backs up this fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._differences_in_intelligence#Mathematics_performance

What is also apparent is that, due to a complex interplay of genetics and social factors, boys tend to be more assertive and dominant than girls, especially in the teenage years. If educators attempt to minimise any disadvantage girls might experience as a result of this, it can only be a good thing.

Taught mathematics, analytical thinking and that specialization is not such a good idea.

You have to develop in many areas at the same time to be able to understand how the entire mechanisms works and what will be impact of that mechanism on your life and environment, not just a very narrow fragment of mechanism like we are taught today.

What level of education do you have Darnok? I can safely say that the mathematical education I received in school has absolutely been invaluable to me in university education, work as a mechanical engineer, and subsequently as a postgraduate researcher.

Students should also be taught that what makes them different from animals is the ability to predict the results of their own actions. Even more they can also predict activities of the society in which they live. If today people can not predict what impact on their lives will have change of the law, means they are uneducated on how society and laws making are working.

Totally agreed. Civics classes are underappreciated and poorly thought-out, and could be greatly improved.

Of course, you said in another thread that any form of taxation was slavery, so how such an education system would be funded in Darnoktopia is anybody's guess.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, proper grammar and spelling have their merit. But people are forgetting we're dealing with a multilingual community here. You CAN NOT expect everybody to be perfect especially since there are an overwhelming amount of non-native English speaking people here who are more fluent than many native English speaking people.

I could go on about this a long time but that's not what this topic is about. 90% of the off topic banter is a about it but the OP is not!

For me, that makes grammar and spelling even more important. Somebody who doesn't speak English as their first language will have their job made far harder if they have to read sloppy grammar and text-speak. I know it causes me huge struggles when I try to read Dutch or French.

(I know this is off-topic, but I think it's an interesting discussion in its own right)

[LordFerret]

Mobile phones and cancer: There is a clear link evident, but not conclusive. It needs more research. Do a Google Scholarly search on the subject, the papers pretty much all state so (that evidence is there and it needs more research). Same for anthropomorphic climate change, there just isn't enough evidence to state it as fact... to do so, I would question one as being 'scientifically illiterate'.

[peadar1987]

Mobile phones and cancer: There is a clear link evident, but not conclusive. It needs more research. Do a Google Scholarly search on the subject, the papers pretty much all state so.

"Pretty much all"? A quick search and it looks like only one study out of many showed a link between mobile phone use and brain tumours (and this study only showed that tumours were more common in the side of the head the phone was held to, i.e. the person's dominant hand, not that there was a correlation between mobile phone usage and the incidence of brain tumours in the general population).

Same for anthropomorphic climate change, there just isn't enough evidence to state it as fact... to do so, I would question one as being 'scientifically illiterate'.

Anthropogenic climate change. Anthropomorphic climate change would be climate change that has human traits attributed to it.

97% of climate scientists would disagree with you, in any case. I'd take their word over yours, even if I hadn't done a lot of research into the area myself.

[LordFerret]

If you're going to quote me, then quote me fully: "... the papers pretty much all state so (that evidence is there and it needs more research)."

Thank you.

[peadar1987]

If you're going to quote me, then quote me fully: "... the papers pretty much all state so (that evidence is there and it needs more research)."

Thank you.

Not sure how that got lost, sorry, I was a little rushed putting the post together.

I also meant to say that the comment I was initially referring to was about mobile phone masts, and not the handsets themselves. Dose rate from a mast, even one you live very close to, is many times lower than dose rate from a handset held against your head.

[PB666]

Mobile phones and cancer: There is a clear link evident, but not conclusive. It needs more research. Do a Google Scholarly search on the subject, the papers pretty much all state so (that evidence is there and it needs more research). Same for anthropomorphic climate change, there just isn't enough evidence to state it as fact... to do so, I would question one as being 'scientifically illiterate'.

They used to say the same thing about autism and gluten, autism and vaccines, but it wasn't true. What is true, the last thing parents want to know, is that there is a clear link between autism, schizophenia and the age of the male parent at conception, and we know why also. At puberty sperm cells under replication, so that by the time a man is in his fifties those cells have tried to replicate through cosmic ray damage, chemical damage, polymerase errors, etc and the Nascent SNP rate in males is about 4 times that of females during that period of the mans life. This is why comparing most of the chimp y chromosome to human is almost impossible, it has a genome relative divergence time of 60000000 years.

As for climate change, woe is the nation that ignores this, and its now not just climate change, the oceans are changing and fast, the CO2 from the 50s and 60s that underwent solvation during arctic winters of past decades is now starting to well up in the temperate zones and shellfish encrustation are starting to faulter. CaOH is the fix, but that just adds more carbon. The oceans will not absorb CO2 like the past, we had a reprieve in the past but that is about to change. You may not chose to change your habits, it matters little; you will need to change you coastal defense, your water plan, you flood plans, your insurance coverage, your military and humanitarian aid, your birth control strategies in some countries, care for the elderly and young, food storage strategies, agriculture strategies etc. Climate change is not about global warming, though this is happening, its about disequilibrium. The problem in our thinking is that we were at the end of a climate optimum; the little ice age was a prelude to the big one. The industrial age stopped this and there was a balance for a time, but now the we have overwhelmed the original problem and the flip fron neutral to change was quiet unexpected even by scientist because for 150 years the system as a whole appeared immune to our activites.

Sso human societies now need some time to assess and change. This is not about illiteracy or science, its about human beings realizing that the earth does not belong to them, but they belong to the earth. We can flip this, but we need to grow more socially to mesh ourselves into the environment better and plan better on a global scale. the problem for some industries is bad, In 20 years or so from now i wouldn't want to be in the airline industry, they better have alternatives.

Edited September 11, 2015 by PB666

[Camacha]

This thread is all over the place, though it is very effective in showing how some adults could benefit from understanding statistics better.

[vger]

Sure, proper grammar and spelling have their merit. But people are forgetting we're dealing with a multilingual community here. You CAN NOT expect everybody to be perfect especially since there are an overwhelming amount of non-native English speaking people here who are more fluent than many native English speaking people.

We're also living in a world where text-based communication is probably more common than verbal. And often, people are using phone-sized devices that are 10x slower for typing out messages than a keyboard. There's no way that proper writing etiquette isn't going to take a beating from this, unless direct-thought input devices take over real soon.