Space warfare Scenerio: Jupiter system vs Ceres Belt

[GeneralVeers]

Why not just assume both sides have colonized equal masses' worth of planets? I'm pretty sure that was Rakaydos' intent when he started this thread.

Jupiter has a dark side... And just as many places to hide. Like SJL-2, behind jupiter. Put a bunch of Trojans there, and then deploy them...

The asteroid belt has no where to hide.

Disagree. We humans can see Jupiter, and we've charted all its moons, and most of those Trojans. (a planet that uses birth control. whoda thunk it......)

But we have a long way to go before finding that rogue asteroid that might end up turning Armageddon from a sci-fi film into a documentary. If the Ceres Republic decides to deorbit a rogue asteroid and fling it at Ganeymede, it could come from anywhere in the entire asteroid belt, and the Jovian Empire will miss it the same way we humans miss most major asteroid impacts; we simply don't see it coming because, begging your pardon, sir, but it's a big-ass sky.

Edited September 13, 2015 by WedgeAntilles

[Bill Phil]

Ganymede is over 165 times Ceres' mass. Even Europa, the smallest Galilean moon, is 3.3 times wider and 51.1 times more massive than Ceres is.

Thanks for the data.

So, yeah. Jupiter had so much more resources. The A Belt is immediately at a loss. But Jupiter would probably lose something.

So, if Ceres represents over half the mass of the Belt, then Europa is more massive than the entire belt?

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Why not just assume both sides have colonized equal masses' worth of planets? I'm pretty sure that was Rakaydos' intent when he started this thread.

Disagree. We humans can see Jupiter, and we've charted all its moons, and most of those Trojans. (a planet that uses birth control. whoda thunk it......)

But we have a long way to go before finding that rogue asteroid that might end up turning Armageddon from a sci-fi film into a documentary.

We haven't charyed all of it's moons.

I'm not saying a rogue asteroid, I'm saying a roid the Jupiterians put there. To help "hide" it from the belters.

You also have quote mined. You missed the part after where I say that neither side can hide.

[GeneralVeers]

I'm not saying a rogue asteroid, I'm saying a roid the Jupiterians put there. To help "hide" it from the belters.

That's the problem; once the roid comes out of hiding, there are only three places it can come from: the Jupiter system and it's L4 and L5 points. If Ceres does the same thing (or sends warships instead of roids) it/they could be fired/launched from anywhere in the entire half of the asteroid belt that's facing Jupiter.

You also have quote mined. You missed the part after where I say that neither side can hide.

Didn't miss it. Just didn't consider it relevant. In my opinion asteroids would be near-useless as orbital impact weapons. Hidden operating bases? Yes. Booby traps with nuclear bombs hidden in them? Absolutely. Dropping them on planets? Forget it.

Also, you had some politics in that "after" part, and we should really avoid that sort of thing. It's irrelevant whether the war is pointless; the original post doesn't care, it simply assumes "the war DID start, let's imagine what would happen". This particular war started because of religion; some of us consider that stupid, but the combatants don't.

and the L4 and L5 dont orbit jupiter

Yes they do. Viewed from Jupiter, the points themselves scribe a circular path around the planet at a near-constant distance.

Objects in those points however? Different story; as I mentioned, the L4 and L5 points are unstable in all directions on the orbital plane; a small deviation from the stable point results in the object flying away from L4/L5 and never returning.

Edited September 13, 2015 by WedgeAntilles

[Bill Phil]

Once the roid leaves, it doesn't matter. I'm just listing possibilities.

You considered it irrelevant? It's perfectly relevant. There is no hiding in space. You can make it harder to spot, but not perfectly hide it. Asteroids have a lot of mass and are amazing as weapons. Especially when dropped from higher energy orbits( such as Jupiter's).

I don't see how that's politics. The war would result in no gain. Even if religiously started, they would skirmish for a few years and then stop, with billions dead. Yay.

SJL-4 and 5 are stationary relative to Jupiter.

[GeneralVeers]

Once the roid leaves, it doesn't matter. I'm just listing possibilities.

You considered it irrelevant? It's perfectly relevant. There is no hiding in space.

Yes there is. I just mentioned it two posts ago: space is so big we can't watch all of it, and asteroids are hitting Earth (well, its atmosphere, anyway) all the time without being spotted until after they hit. This is the problem our theoretical Jovians have; they have to watch a much larger amount of sky than the Cerians do.

Asteroids have a lot of mass and are amazing as weapons.

Worthless as weapons. Precisely because they have a lot of mass. That makes them very slow, and therefore easy to spot--especially when you know where such a thing would be launched from, as the Cerians do. And also giving you plenty of time to stick a motor on a smaller asteroid of your own, crash it into the big one, and make it miss its target (which, as any KSP player should know, doesn't take a lot of delta-v, especially at long range).

I don't see how that's politics. The war would result in no gain.

The religious Jovians who started the war (as stated explicitly by the original post) disagree.

SJL-4 and 5 are stationary relative to Jupiter.

Yup. Yet they still orbit Jupiter, in the same way that the Moon is still rotating even though we never see the back side of it.

[Bill Phil]

Yet, the Jovians can use resources in the belt too. They're also closer in Dv terms to the K Belt, a huge region of the sky, bigger than the A belt. Why must it be considered to only have Jupiter as it's resource?

Not worthless. Very useful. It may not take much Dv, but it would take a lot of mass to move a lot of mass. More energy.

That's the problem with this thought exercise, it's not going to happen, ever.

No, Lagrange points can't orbit anything. They are not physical objects. They're regions of space with interesting properties. How is that the same way as the Moon rotates but we never see the other side? That doesn't make sense. L-points are a result of gravity, moving at the same speed as the secondary body. Similar to how to craft, when in similar orbits but are a few degrees from each other, have low relative velocities.

[GeneralVeers]

Yet, the Jovians can use resources in the belt too. They're also closer in Dv terms to the K Belt, a huge region of the sky, bigger than the A belt. Why must it be considered to only have Jupiter as it's resource?

Because the original post said so: "colonies on all major moons of the Jupiter system". Things like the L4 and L5 points don't add anything to the scenario--instead of being fun, it becomes tedious.

Not worthless. Very useful. It may not take much Dv, but it would take a lot of mass to move a lot of mass. More energy.

You mean less energy. A lot of energy to deorbit the rock and propel it towards the target; much less energy to change its course so it misses the target by a hundred miles.

That's the problem with this thought exercise, it's not going to happen, ever.

More than once (and not only in movies, either) people who say "it's never going to happen" are quite startled when it does. Hopefully by typing the above, you didn't just jinx human history......

No, Lagrange points can't orbit anything. They are not physical objects.

They don't have to be. They're discrete points with specific properties.

How is that the same way as the Moon rotates but we never see the other side?

Simple: the Moon rotates once in the same time it takes to complete one orbit. It's rotating even though we don't see it. L4 and L5 take the same amount of time to circle Jupiter as to orbit the Sun; that's the only possible way they (or any object) can be stationary relative to a planet.

[Bill Phil]

The original post said things only about Jupiter, there could be colonies in other locations.

No. More energy. At Apoapse, it travels slower. It increases speed as it approaches Periapse. More kinetic energy, more inertia, harder to move. The Cerians are at the disadvantage in that regard, their asteroid impactors would travel slower at Apoapse.

This won't happen because all religious wars only used religion as an excuse. In space there would be no need for war. Not that many more excuses.

For something to orbit something else, it has to be a physical object.

No, the L4 and 5 points "orbit" the sun. But they're not really orbiting since they wouldn't fall if they had no velocity.

[Rakaydos]

The original post said things only about Jupiter, there could be colonies in other locations.

Lets nail this down a bit.

The religious fundamentalists come from the main moons of jupiter. Lets call it some form of neo-Olympian worship of Jupiter, if it matters.

In addition to the main colonies on Ceres, Vesta and the others, there' also lots of mining ships throught the belt that are practically independant colonies, giving the Belters a very disperced infrastructure.

Jovians are good with short range space travel, such as within the jovian system, but the Belters live with the realities of microgravity every day.

[GeneralVeers]

In that case, Rak, I'd say definite Ceres win.

Hitting enemy economy is a big part of winning most wars, and with the above rule, the Cerian economy is a lot harder to hit.

No. More energy. At Apoapse, it travels slower. It increases speed as it approaches Periapse. More kinetic energy, more inertia, harder to move.

Wrong. Less energy.

How do I know this? How do I know you're wrong? Because this web site is a Kerbal Space Program web site! I play Kerbal Space Program! I've done the above in Kerbal Space Program. Deorbiting from a higher orbit to a lower one (for example, from Kerbin to Moho) requires a huge amount of delta-V. When an object is on an impact trajectory, turning the impact into a near-miss requires only a tiny fraction of that delta-V. Your wrongness has been experimentally verified.

The Cerians are at the disadvantage in that regard, their asteroid impactors would travel slower at Apoapse.

Also wrong. The Cerians have the advantage, for a reason I already mentioned: the Cerians have many, many directions they can launch impactors from. Making their impactors almost impossible to detect. Whereas Ceres only has to watch a few locations to spot any impactors the Jovians launch. The Cerians will always see Jovian impactors coming, and will have plenty of time to counter them.

In space there would be no need for war.

Once again, the Jovian radicals disagree. Whether you think there's no need for the war is irrelevant; the war has already started. Just as with real-world politics; there are a whole lot of bad things happening in the world right now. SHOULD those things happen? Of course not! But reality doesn't care. Those things are happening anyway.

For something to orbit something else, it has to be a physical object.

Same answer as last time: no it doesn't.

[tater]

Seems like this "war" would require capturing things intact on the part of the jovians, by definition. The belters would have no such limitations. If you switch it to a genocidal war, then they all either throw KE weapons or nukes at each other. Like most "SDI" scenarios, the defender pretty much needs to be 100%, else pretty serious consequences.

[GeneralVeers]

Maybe we should just leave superweapons out of it? Seeing as how real-world Earth currently has lots of wars going on--with, very strangely, no nukes being used in any of them.....

Superweapons make this Jovian-Cerian scenario more complicated (or maybe more simple!) than it needs to be.

[tater]

Maybe we should just leave superweapons out of it? Seeing as how real-world Earth currently has lots of wars going on--with, very strangely, no nukes being used in any of them.....

Superweapons make this Jovian-Cerian scenario more complicated (or maybe more simple!) than it needs to be.

One side is already set as irrational in the given, though. There are a few reasons nukes are not used on earth, one is MAD, the other is that even with enemies that cannot retaliate meaningfully, there are effects outside the target areas (fallout). If religious nuts were hell-bent on converting me via force of arms, I'd be entirely fine with wiping them (all of them) off the map, I hold my freedom of thought to be more important then their existence.

[Kibble]

I'd be entirely fine with wiping them (all of them) off the map, I hold my freedom of thought to be more important then their existence.

Jeez 0_0

[tater]

Jeez 0_0

The Jovians are welcome to do as they wish among themselves, the scenario is them invading/killing anyone who won't convert, that pretty much means they need to go, or their set of ideas needs to be 100% expunged, as it's incompatible with the rest of us living our lives as we see fit.

[GeneralVeers]

So, if they don't accept your way of thinking, you're prepared to convert them.....either to your way of thinking, or to radioactive vapor.....

You're treading on very dangerous territory there, Tater.

Next time you hear somebody complain about, for example, global warming? That is a person who does say it's appropriate to convert you to their religion, to control what you do and think. Because (they claim) it directly impacts their safety. Take a look at how often that happens, and how easy it is to fall into that same trap.

Scary, isn't it? Even when opposing religious radicals, it's very easy to start talking exactly like them.....

[Rakaydos]

Given that the Jovians are the aggressor, but also the ones most vulnerable to MAD (few high-density population centers compared to the Belters disperced ppulation) wouldnt it be in the Jovian's bes interest to stay out of MAD situations?

[Bill Phil]

Given that the Jovians are the aggressor, but also the ones most vulnerable to MAD (few high-density population centers compared to the Belters disperced ppulation) wouldnt it be in the Jovian's bes interest to stay out of MAD situations?

The Jovians can be equally spread out. The Trojan asteroids are pretty good resources.

[tater]

So, if they don't accept your way of thinking, you're prepared to convert them.....either to your way of thinking, or to radioactive vapor.....

You're treading on very dangerous territory there, Tater.

Next time you hear somebody complain about, for example, global warming? That is a person who does say it's appropriate to convert you to their religion, to control what you do and think. Because (they claim) it directly impacts their safety. Take a look at how often that happens, and how easy it is to fall into that same trap.

Scary, isn't it? Even when opposing religious radicals, it's very easy to start talking exactly like them.....

I'm not talking even little like them. The prerequisite for a violent response is for THEM to initiate violence, and the OP said they are motivated to proactively attack peaceful worlds solely to spread their nonsensical religious beliefs (I realize that is a redundant statement). I'm perfectly happy to coexist with them as long as there is no violent compulsion on their part. If they cross that line and attack/kill whole worlds, they need to go away, they've demonstrated they are too dangerous to have around.

[Rakaydos]

The Jovians can be equally spread out. The Trojan asteroids are pretty good resources.

But the jupiter-worshipers dont have the trojans.

[Bill Phil]

But the jupiter-worshipers dont have the trojans.

Ah, but can you prove that?

Besides, there's more resources in the Jupiter system than the Belt.

[tater]

But the jupiter-worshipers dont have the trojans.

Ah, but can you prove that?

Remember, they want more believers...

Remember to tip your waitress!

[Rakaydos]

Ah, but can you prove that?

Besides, there's more resources in the Jupiter system than the Belt.

As I'm the one setting the scenerio, I dont need to prove it.

[Bill Phil]

As I'm the one setting the scenerio, I dont need to prove it.

Then you haven't properly analysed the situation. The Jovians aren't idiots, they'll grab up those Trojans in a cosmic second. Jupiter has more resources anyway. Add on to that the Trojan asteroids, Jupiter is an unstoppable war machine.

The only thing that could stop it might be Saturn, or another giant system.

[peadar1987]

So, if they don't accept your way of thinking, you're prepared to convert them.....either to your way of thinking, or to radioactive vapor.....

You're treading on very dangerous territory there, Tater.

Next time you hear somebody complain about, for example, global warming? That is a person who does say it's appropriate to convert you to their religion, to control what you do and think. Because (they claim) it directly impacts their safety. Take a look at how often that happens, and how easy it is to fall into that same trap.

Scary, isn't it? Even when opposing religious radicals, it's very easy to start talking exactly like them.....

Hmm... Yes, and those people who think that we shouldn't be allowed to dump mercury in drinking water without fear of prosecution? They're just a religious zealots looking to control the way we think! Nothing to do with the fact that mercury is proven beyond reasonable doubt to cause neurological damage. And of course, they're completely analogous to genocidal Jovian jihadists (alliteration intended)