Most effective way to steer your ship at 10km Altitude ?

[Spaceweezle]

Hello again,

When building bigger ships, I have noticed they are almost impossible to steer at the 10km mark. I am trying to orientate 90 degrees before my first stage dies, but it's fighting me so hard.

I have AV-R8 Winglets on top and bottom of ship and 4 x RV105 RCS thrusters, but the steering is nothing short of woeful.

Can I ask how you guys steer your ship at that altitude ?

[FancyMouse]

We don't steer at 10km. We do true gravity turn starting at a much lower altitude. Check out tutorial subforum and there should be plenty of tutorials about how to do gravity turns right for atmosphere since 1.0

[Alshain]

Well, without a picture, it is a bit hard to say.

First, don't put fins at the top of the craft... really ever. That just destabilizes it.

Second, rockets rarely use or need active control surfaces as fins. Use the AV-T1 Winglet instead.

Third, you shouldn't need RCS in the atmosphere.

Fourth, What mass is your payload alone (everything minus the part that gets it to orbit?)

Fifth, start turning much sooner. I usually start around 2km, turn gradually while heading up and by 10km I'm on the 45 degree mark. By 30 km, I'm on the 10 degree mark. This is a rough approximation, depending on your TWR you may need to turn a little slower or even a little faster.

Sixth, Don't overbuild. Speed is not always your friend. If you're traveling too fast, it will be hard to steer.

Seventh, Try to stay aerodynamic. Flat surfaced rockets have a harder time turning.

Finally, post a picture for more help.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Alshain

[Red Iron Crown]

Gimballed engines work well for steering rockets at all altitudes. Make sure your main engines are gimballed, and if they don't give enough control authority a couple of Twitches or Thuds can add some more.

[Clipperride]

At 10km you are still deep in the atmosphere and so will find it hard to turn quickly. There is a lot of air pressure pushing back on the sides of the rocket as you try and rotate. As others suggest, start your turn lower down.

[satnet]

I'll reiterate the need for a gravity turn. If you start a gravity turn properly the rocket should just about steer itself into the proper turn. It takes some practice and you'll probably flip a rocket or two, but it is one of the more beneficial skills to master in the game.

I'm assuming when you say 90 degrees you mean horizontal (you launch at 90, horizontal is 0). You really shouldn't be going for horizontal at 10km. I'm usually aiming to be at 0 degrees between 30 km and 40 km, though it depends on the rocket. That is rarely on my first stage. As a rule of thumb until I'm past about 15 km, my main focus is on keeping aerodynamically stable rather than on achieving a specific orientation (you do need to achieve an orientation, but that is priority #2) which means gradual changes as you ascend instead of the sharp turns we used to use pre-1.0.

[Skorpychan]

Turn early, and turn slowly. Use thrust vectoring rather than active aerodynamics, and things should work well.

Basically, just turn a few notches over once you're clear of the pad, then a little more and a little more as you rise. Once the atmosphere thins out, you can turn more and lose less dV to drag.

Once you've got an AP above the atmosphere, kill the throttle and coast up. Then you tip over to a proper 90 degrees and go full throttle to circularise. Or use the thrust vectoring to steer for that if your reaction wheels can't keep up.

[Mastikator]

A perfect gravity turn involves holding prograde the entire burn and fully circularizing the moment you hit apoapsis.

So you wanna turn the moment you ignite your engines, or better yet, just start slightly turned already. How much you turn at the start though, that's the hard one.

[Highguard]

... It takes some practice and you'll probably flip a rocket or two, but it is one of the more beneficial skills to master in the game ...

Can't resist...

You see, Oliver...

When you launch, one thing counts

airflow drag, large amounts

steering skills don't grow on trees,

You've got to flip-a-rocket or two

You've got to flip-a-rocket or two, boys,

You've got to flip-a-rocket or two.

[Skalou]

Can't resist...

You see, Oliver...

When you launch, one thing counts

airflow drag, large amounts

steering skills don't grow on trees,

You've got to flip-a-rocket or two

You've got to flip-a-rocket or two, boys,

You've got to flip-a-rocket or two.

...sorry, can't resist!

[Spaceweezle]

I'll reiterate the need for a gravity turn. If you start a gravity turn properly the rocket should just about steer itself into the proper turn. It takes some practice and you'll probably flip a rocket or two, but it is one of the more beneficial skills to master in the game.

I'm assuming when you say 90 degrees you mean horizontal (you launch at 90, horizontal is 0). You really shouldn't be going for horizontal at 10km. I'm usually aiming to be at 0 degrees between 30 km and 40 km, though it depends on the rocket. That is rarely on my first stage. As a rule of thumb until I'm past about 15 km, my main focus is on keeping aerodynamically stable rather than on achieving a specific orientation (you do need to achieve an orientation, but that is priority #2) which means gradual changes as you ascend instead of the sharp turns we used to use pre-1.0.

Sorry, yeah I did mean turning from 90 to 0 degrees. Still trying to make sense of the Nav ball.

What used to work for me was hitting 10km then turning to 45 degrees until my Apoapsis is at 100km then shut my engines down, but a lot has changed since I last played and it feels much harder now.

Essentially I want to know the most efficient method for making orbit. I seem to have terrible efficiency getting my Apoapsis to 100km.

A perfect gravity turn involves holding prograde the entire burn and fully circularizing the moment you hit apoapsis.

So you wanna turn the moment you ignite your engines, or better yet, just start slightly turned already. How much you turn at the start though, that's the hard one.

That sounds difficult, but I will have to give it a try.

@Alshain - Thanks for the tip on using winglets, not having them at the top has really improved stability.

Thanks everyone for the help, though much of it eluded me.

[Jovus]

What used to work for me was hitting 10km then turning to 45 degrees until my Apoapsis is at 100km then shut my engines down, but a lot has changed since I last played and it feels much harder now.

As you've found out, that simply won't work anymore with the new aero. You must do a gradual turn if you want to start turning before space.

That sounds difficult, but I will have to give it a try.

While it's hard at first to pick up when and how much to start turning, once you get the hang of it a gravity turn's actually easier than the old manual model. With a well-built, well-understood rocket, you can hit the controls once and then watch your rocket get to space by hitting the spacebar.

Generally, I aim for an initial TWR of ~1.4, then tip over about 5 degrees when my rocket's going 100m/s. Higher initial TWR means a smaller pitch at lower speed, lower initial TWR means a larger pitch at higher speed (not necessarily coupled). By playing around with those three parameters (TWR, speed, pitch) you'll get a feel for how your rockets like to fly, though there's always some variation from rocket to rocket.

Some people say a good guideline is to be pitched at 45 degrees when you're at 10km, but for me this always leads to a too-shallow ascent.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Jovus

[Spaceweezle]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention- "the new Aero" that is. Could explain why nothing works like it used to back in beta, except for my Kerbals, they still die. I wish I had access to maneuver nodes, not having them means I am pretty much blindly pointing into space.

I managed to get into Kerbin orbit with my last stage fully fueled, though it only has a LV909 and takes forever to do anything. It's got so little thrust that I actually pass the Periapsis trying to burn Prograde. I don't have enough science for the adapter thing that lets you have 3 engines.

By some feat I got to Mun, did some science @ 500km, but now it seems I am doomed because I re-enter Kerbin's atmosphere at 3200m/s. I know this a bit off-topic, but how do I get back to Kerbin without turning into a meteorite ?

EDIT: I tried Retrograde burn at Periapsis but the lowest Periapsis I can make is 287km. I can't figure out how to offset the orbit, if I could reduce the orbit diameter by even half I might survive the re-entry. Problem is I don't have enough fuel to simply reduce it all the way to atmosphere level.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Spaceweezle

[Spaceweezle]

Yes I did it!

Jeb is now home safe recovering after a hellish ordeal which nearly claimed his life and the ships!

Good thing I had those 4 rads.

[GoSlash27]

Take a tip from HighGuard. Spacing isn't all that hard. As I recall he started small he had to flip a rocket or two.

Best,

-Slashy

[Jovus]

I would highly suggest playing around with sandbox mode before career until you get the hang of the new aero and reentries.

[Clipperride]

You'll need to switch your SAS off in order to execute a gravity turn. You can do it with SAS and turn yourself, but that isn't strictly a gravity turn.