Does anyone model with 3DS Max?

[Halo_003]

I'm trying to make an engine cluster with 6 engines about one in the center. I'm having a lot of trouble doing this in 3DS Max, namely because of two problems:

I can't get it symetric. I need them lined up perfectly for this and I don't know how to do that in Max.

Secondly, I can't figure out a way to attach my engine thruster object to the engine cluster object and have them be centered.

What I'm making is similar to the SpaceY R7 Ratite cluster, but different and for my own use. Any help would be much appreciated. I've tried searching for info on this and have had a lot of difficulty finding anything free.

Edit: Bonus questions:

Is there a way to set up attachment rules in 3DS Max so that I can build the actual rocket in it first?

Is there a way to render said rocket in flight in 3DS Max with a smoke plume and all?

Any ideas on where to find info on the actual design of the engines? I'd like to actually engineer them to be capable of being machined and working.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Halo_003

[landeTLS]

For the first question: By default in 3dsmax you have 2 basic options for doing this.

1: if your center engine isnt in the center of your thrust plate then press alt+a and click on your thrustplate.move the engine down to where it should sit. Now clone as copy or reference your center engine object. Add a poly select modifier (this will ensure everything stays selected up the stack. Do not add any edit poly modifiers above this in the stack) now add an xform modifier. Click on it in the stack and go into the xform modifier gizmo (default ctrl+ move the gizmo in the x or y direction(as far as you want to have the extra engines from the center of the cluster, can be adjusted later again) go out of the gizmo sub object. Go to your snaps settings (rightclick the magnet icon on the top of the toolbar) select the angle snap angle and set it to 50 degrees(*i think*for 6 extra engines) or 22.5(*i think*) for 8 extra engines. Click the key a to activate angle snaps . Then e to activate the rotate tool. Now hold shift and rotate your reference cloned engine one snap worth. Make it an instance and select 5 or 7 copies. Now you have 6 or 8 engines plus the one in the middle. And any changes you make to the one in the middle will be reflected in the others.

You can also just instance a single engine(shift+move). Drag it to x or y where you want it. Activate the rotation tool. select the coordinate system dropdown and select pick. Now click on your center engine model object. And click hold the pivot center icon (next to the coordinate system dropdown) select selection center (last option) now shift+rotate with angle snaps active and create 5 or 7 instances. I dont prefer this method as it is not as flexible but it works well and is a bit simpler

2: clone the center engine as reference like before. And add poly select and xform. Move the xform gizmo out in x or y direction now setup the angle snaps as in the last method and activate angle snaps(a key or the second magnet icon) and add a symmetry modifier. Go into the symmetry gizmo and rotate it by one snaps worth. Now copy and paste the symmetry modifier and repeat until you have engines all around(ps. You may need to deactivate slice if your engine has stuff sticking far out of it) You can still adjust the position of the engines with the xform gizmo as before.

Hope this helps

For the second question im not sure if you mean a model object or your thrust transform. If it your thrust transform then just create a helper object and align it(select it and alt+a and click on the object to align to) to the center engine object. Clone it and Activate snaps but turn on the axis constraint in the snaps options. Turn on your move tool (w key) and move to the x or y direction while in view of a center vertex of the engine object. It should now be aligned to the engine bell. Now rotate it while holding shift 5 or 7 copies. Now click on the "select and link" icon (on the left side of the top toolbar. Hover over to see tooltips if you are not sure which one it is) click and drag/drop the helper object to the engine model object it is sitting below. Repeat for all the engine models.

If you mean a model object you can follow the above method and after you are done use the select and link tool to parent each of the objects to the corresponding engine model.

Edited October 12, 2015 by landeTLS

[Halo_003]

That worked perfectly, thank you! I had to do 60 degrees for 6 engines though.

The second question is how to get the engines flat against the engine adapters with zero empty space in between.

[landeTLS]

Yea i was doing the degrees calculation in my head (not my strong suit) to get the engines flat against the adapter. Select all the engines and move them down a bit. Activate wireframe overlay (f4 key) snaps (s key) *with axis constraints active in the settings* press f8(i think) to constrain to z axis. Hover over any vertex at the top of the engine and drag it to any vertex at the bottom of the engine adapter.

Edited October 12, 2015 by landeTLS

[Van Disaster]

Alternative - offset one engine to where you want, put it's pivot where you want to rotate around, and do an array with it ( tools->array ).

If I need to snap a part of a model to a surface I turn vertex snap on, edit the pivot so I snap that to a vertex on the surface I want to attach, and then get out of edit pivot mode & snap the entire model to a vertex on the surface I want to attach it to.

[landeTLS]

Alternative - offset one engine to where you want, put it's pivot where you want to rotate around, and do an array with it ( tools->array ).

If I need to snap a part of a model to a surface I turn vertex snap on, edit the pivot so I snap that to a vertex on the surface I want to attach, and then get out of edit pivot mode & snap the entire model to a vertex on the surface I want to attach it to.

The first one is actually how my method does it except that by using the xform modifier every engine can be a reference of itself and still retain its original pivot in the center(this also allows you to change the offset of all the outer engines at the same time by editing the xform gizmo and also apply local rotation the same way through the stack to the engines).

You can also do the rotation by instancing an engine to where you want it to be then change the coordinate system to pick(pick center engine) select pivot(selection center) and shift rotate around(5x copies to 60degrees). But this does not allow you to change all the offsets at the same time like the xform method. I dont usually use the array tool for this kind of stuff but it can be useful in some cases.

For the second thats the way i would do it too (except i would still use axis constraints to place the pivot at the top. Tho if you have/create a tri fan on the top you could snap to the center vertex of that) i chose to explain it in a more generic way for the op. Also as explaining how to get the pivot to the top would add another block of text that might discurage the poor guy:sticktongue:

Edit: i had answers for the bonus questions in my original reply but my phone lost power while editing...bummer

So here it is:

Bonus 1: no. The attachement rules are done all in the part config file. it is however possible to create named helper objects in max and using them as attachement points by using the node {} in the part config. Tho im not sure if all the bugs are worked out of that system yet. Not sure what you mean by "so you can build the actual rocket in it first" but you can preview how all different parts look together by using the align, snaps and select and link tools described earlier.

Bonus 2: max has a built in particle system as well as a nice plugin available to create realistic flames etc called fumefx. But neither is compatible with ksp/unity,takes a while to setup and wont look like it will inside ksp so i dont see the point in going through the trouble of setting it up for a simple preview(especcially when you can just export to unity and add the kspparticleemitter and test it out there)

Bonus 3: for engine designs google is your friend. You can also find some references on sites like astronautrix and atomic rockets etc.

Im not sure what you mean by "id like to actually engineer them to be able to be machined etc"...if you mean "look like it works" then that can be achived by studying reference pics and mixing in some creativity and seeing what comes out.

If you meant literally then no (unless your name is elon musk:sticktongue:)

Edited October 14, 2015 by landeTLS

[Van Disaster]

I don't really understand why there's no rotational symmetry mod, given the existance of the array tool but ah well. I'm still adverse to the xform mod because older versions could make a horrible mess - I suspect it's better now but I'm just still wary but there's always half a dozen ways to do something in Max.

[landeTLS]

I don't really understand why there's no rotational symmetry mod, given the existance of the array tool but ah well. I'm still adverse to the xform mod because older versions could make a horrible mess - I suspect it's better now but I'm just still wary but there's always half a dozen ways to do something in Max.

Yea max REALLY needs a built in radial/rotational symmetry modifier . I usually use the radial symmetry modifier plugin. Also if you have max 2016 you can use an mcg script called mcgcloner (really sweet) and radial clone. Mcgs are still a bit rough but they are free and quite easy to edit yourself through a node based editor. I actually found lately that a most of those nasty stack based mesh corruption issues i was having earlier in my max experience can be fixed by adhering to a relatively simple rule set

1. never instance modifiers where you might add an edit poly on top(unless on instanced objects)

2. Always collapse the stack after using subobject ffd.

3. Add one poly select modifier with no selections to the stack above all your editpoly mods when doing subobject selection dependent stuff like xform, bend, taper etc..

4. never ever leave sub object selections active in edit/editable poly mods(always ctrl b out of them)

5: keep regular backup copys of your progress just incase.

6:collapse the edit poly stack once you are happy with your progress.

Its probably apparent from my posts that i like to use lots of editpoly mods. I like the iterative control over the modeling process i get by doing it that way

Yea. There are way to many ways to do things in max. Its not often i find a single workflow for a particular situation.

Edited October 14, 2015 by landeTLS

[Van Disaster]

Its probably apparent from my posts that i like to use lots of editpoly mods. I like the iterative control over the modeling process i get by doing it that way

Same way I use a million layers in a 2d package, I have commitment issues

If you're a new Max guy:

* Set up autobackup right now

* Set up incremental saves - can be annoying if you get Unity to look at your save folder directly ( unless there's a trick I missed there, possible ) but you can just export to fbx by hand anyway

* Use Hold, a lot.

[landeTLS]

Same way I use a million layers in a 2d package, I have commitment issues

If you're a new Max guy:

* Set up autobackup right now

* Set up incremental saves - can be annoying if you get Unity to look at your save folder directly ( unless there's a trick I missed there, possible ) but you can just export to fbx by hand anyway

* Use Hold, a lot.

Autobackup literally saves my butt atleast once a day.

[Halo_003]

Thanks guys! I did get it figured out but it was a bit of a pain.

I built this in SolidWorks later on and wow, SW was so much easier to handle symmetry with actually.

Same way I use a million layers in a 2d package, I have commitment issues

If you're a new Max guy:

* Set up autobackup right now

* Set up incremental saves - can be annoying if you get Unity to look at your save folder directly ( unless there's a trick I missed there, possible ) but you can just export to fbx by hand anyway

* Use Hold, a lot.

Yep! I learned this when I lost my work the first time and had to completely restart.