How to fly to another planets effective without mechjeb?

[Polnoch]

[QUOTE][COLOR=#333333]You have that too, but you had help, and I did not![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I also sended probes to some planets without transfer window mode and without precise node: I sended it, use my intuition. But I think, I doesn't look reality, because in reality humanity calculate anything in space fly!
I think, more hardcore and more reality game, if you calculate anything. I think, intuitive flys is more simpler then intuitive, because you switch on your brain, and calc :)

I think, I will start my next campaign in hard level (without quick saves), and with new modes: 1) Remote Tech - this mode doesn't allow manage probes, if you haven't direct line between space center and probe (or you must have a communication sattelite), or you can write a program for probe on Kerbal Script languge:

[URL]http://ksp-kos.github.io/KOS_DOC/addons/RemoteTech.html[/URL]

And I don't see this game simpler then vanilla game.

[QUOTE] [COLOR=#333333]I can do maths problems without grabbing for my calculator or phone all the time. I can do it in my head, I can do it with a pencil and a piece of paper, or I can use a slide ruler or even a logarithmic table (just a book with difficult numbers). If you can only do maths with your calculator or phone, then you know NOTHING of maths. If your phone runs out of power, you cannot do your math problems anymore. But *I* can![/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]

But why? Math, in real life, is understanding, what is logarithm, what is sinus, cousins, what is the physical sense of the derivative and integral - the best way, I think, can calculate derrvative and integral, but use, if you need to calc it, computer software - Maple, Mathcad, else. Better way, I thing, understand sense, but not remembering of algorithms.

Our game about space and travalling, it is the main sense. I agree, the autopilot become you game to cheatest, becouse it is main sense of game. Like if you use sci calculator to have a good achievements in game for calculate trigonometric numbers :))

But I think, get a hohman transfer is the real achievement in game about space flight.

[COLOR=silver][SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='BoilingOil']Well, excuse me, but to me the phrase "I want more hardcore" (literally from the top post) sounds like they want a challenge! The challenge is to try without tools and see what you can learn from it.
I know what you are saying QPDO. But really, I'm not going to call anyone stupid or dumb, EVER. But the game isn't [B]just[/B] about [B]doing[/B] the missions, but also about [B]learning how[/B] to do it.There is nothing elitist about saying that they aren't trying that. They spent €40 - or $50 - on a game that can teach them new stuff. And in one month time they have seen all corners of the game but have not challenged themselves. To me that sounds like they wasted their money. Isn't that just a pity? I think it is! If I spend that kind of cash, I want to get some bang for my buck!

There are tons of things that I cannot do, but I will never stop trying, because I want to learn. I want to think that maybe someday I [B]will[/B] be able to do it myself. But if I never try it on my own, I know that I never will!

If you have the tools that tell you what to do, you never need to learn how to think for yourself. The tools tell you what you need, and as long as you comply everything is fine. You'll reach the finish line, but you will not learn anything new from it.[/QUOTE]


But I want to can make Hohman-tranfers flys :) Yes, with hardcore scenario - without MJ. And, I never installed MJ in past - I only seen youtubes videos with it.

And, my achievements of probes locate near another planets is my achievements(in your rules) , because I send it intuitive - I can't calc good maneuvers with KER(it provide calculation dV, but I can't use it, because my maneuvers was intuitive). I want more hardcore in calculated maneuvers - this is what I want. Edited November 16, 2015 by Polnoch

[Warzouz]

Polnoch, going to Moho is the hardest navigation you can get in KSP. Going everywhere including Eeloo is easier. When you're there it's quite easy to land and get back (just a bit harder than Vall) but much easier than Tylo.

So getting there is hard. First as Moho is on an incline and eccentric orbit dV to get there can vary a lot, depending on your location. Further more, the SOI is small and getting an encounter is very hard. Even you get one, the burn time may wreck your course and make you miss it. You have to recheck after leaving Kerbin SOI.

I've noticed that MechJeb does a poor job to find encounter : it only calculate a flyby which has a cheap escape burn at LKO. You'll probably get a very expensive retro burn for circularizing around Moho (I had a 5500m/s once... then I stopped using MJ for interplanetary navigation)

Good Moho encounter
- Get encounter behind Kerbol (180° from Kerbin location)
- Try to encounter Moho at it's own apoaps (to minimise dV).

How I do it
- I use "Precise Node" or "Node editor" feature from MechJeb
- Launch your ship in advance (10 to 15 kerbin days) or use any already vehicle at LKO.
- Set Moho as target
- Set a node anywhere (don't bother about ejection angle) and increase the prograde down to Moho orbit
- With any node editor, shift the node time by 10s until the orbit PE comes to a minimum (then you'll be in the correct ejection angle).
- Change the prograde again down to Moho orbit
- Locate AN/DN and set a second node there, match Moho inclination
- Tweak the second node to get an encounter.
- If you fail tweak the first node and reset a new second node.
- If you're too late or too soon, don't try to get radial, add orbits to your first node (MJ has a feature for that in the Node Editor).
- When you get an encounter, check if orbit touches nicely and don't intersects too much. Try to fix it if needed.
- Don't bother getting the perfect PE around Moho yet, but you can add a third node to get an evaluation of your circularize burn dV at Moho PE.
- If you get something coherent with the dV charts you can use it to burn your first node.
- After leaving SOI, I recommend recreating a proper second node at AN/DN.
- On arriving at Moho, the SOI is usually less than 45min long (if I remember correctly) and you have a lot of dV to burn there. Beware of low TWR ships.

I've been to Moho several times with probes to 100 tons space stations. Soon I'll do some crew rotation...

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

My advice:

1. go to [URL]http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/[/URL] and get a departure window date and ejection angle.
2. read the tutorial in my sig to find the departure angle plot the burn and GO!

all stock

[micr0wave]

i found the phase angle map from [URL="http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/26393-Handy-interesting-graphs-charts"]this thread[/URL] quite helpful to find the right time for a transfer.

[Warzouz]

[quote name='micr0wave']i found the phase angle map from [URL="http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/26393-Handy-interesting-graphs-charts"]this thread[/URL] quite helpful to find the right time for a transfer.[/QUOTE]

Of course, but you can find it by yourself only by shifting node time on its orbit.

[Polnoch]

[QUOTE] Also, I found bug in KSP: if probe's (does space ships has this bug too?) orbit is retrograde, maneuver's blue marker incorrect. It locate on 180 degrees then correct angle - on opposite side![/QUOTE]

It was a my mistake. I have a 3 landers in my moho probe (to get science from 3 biomes), and I attached it the back side to front. I clicked to the Probodobodyne OKTO part's "manage from here" button of orbital module of my Moho's probe, and problem solved

[IMG]http://s13.postimg.org/4fdwr6o5j/screenshot81.png[/IMG]



But I have a problem with understanding how to do burst :(

I used Copy departure UT button in transfer window, and paste it in Precise Node UT input area. Node was at night side of Kerbin, but terminator near :(


[IMG]http://s30.postimg.org/disjsxllt/screenshot82.png[/IMG]





What Transfer window planner mean with "303.72" Degree? It 57 Degree if we have retrograde orbit? But 57 degree from what? Kerbol? The angle does not seen like acute - it like obtuse (to the Kerbol)

And, I have no encouter. How I can change Inclination? Or I needn't do this? Edited November 16, 2015 by Polnoch

[Warzouz]

I must say I also used tools (alex tool, KAC window, MJ interplanetary transfert...) I rarely got what I wanted. Maybe I don't use those tools correctly. I'm better with my own method (even I still use MJ for executing nodes :D ).

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

[quote name='Polnoch']

What Transfer window planner mean with "303.72" Degree? It 57 Degree if we have retrograde orbit? But 57 degree from what? Kerbol? The angle does not seen like acute - it like obtuse (to the Kerbol)

And, I have no encouter. How I can change Inclination? Or I needn't do this?[/QUOTE]

303 degrees from prograde of Kerbin's orbit around its sun. At the time of departure. (look at the illustrations in the tutorial in my sig)

270 would be directly between the Kerbin and the sun(noon) , 90 would be opposite from the sun (midnight).

You are still orbiting Kerbin counter-clockwise, so 303 means you are on the sun side, going backwards against the orbit of Kerbin, so yes, retrograde to Kerbin's orbit, (more accurately just slightly slower than kerbin, relative to the sun) and toward the Sun.


There will also be a "plane-change" up/down (purple triangle) component to the maneuver because Moho is not perfectly in the solar plane. Edited November 17, 2015 by Brainlord Mesomorph

[psamathe]

[quote name='Warzouz']I must say I also used tools (alex tool, KAC window, MJ interplanetary transfert...) I rarely got what I wanted. Maybe I don't use those tools correctly. I'm better with my own method (even I still use MJ for executing nodes :D ).[/QUOTE]

You can use a combination of the Alex tool and Mechjeb to get a good transfer. Main problem with Mechjeb is that it only takes into account the departure burn - for somewhere like Moho the insertion burn is more important.

What I do is use the alex tool to get the time and journey duration of a good burn. Then I use the advanced transfer to another planet option and click on the point in the diagram with the same departure time and journey time. That should give you something very close to the optimum transfer taking into account departure and insertion burns.

[Violent Jeb]

Its things like this that illustrate clearly how essential dV readouts, ejection angles and maneuver planners are, and how they should be in stock. The staff that makes Mechjeb and KER really need a raise. Oh wait..

[Warzouz]

[quote name='Violent Jeb']Its things like this that illustrate clearly how essential dV readouts, ejection angles and maneuver planners are, and how they should be in stock. The staff that makes Mechjeb and KER really need a raise. Oh wait..[/QUOTE]

And precise node editor is also a very user friendly tool. It should be stock. KAC (maybe a simpler version like feature is also necessary when dealing with multiple missions.

[Polnoch]

I'm sorry, I steel don't understand, how can I do it :(

If I try to use olex tool:

[IMG]http://s12.postimg.org/wmk1rah8d/ksp_olex.png[/IMG]



It tell us, we need to use 1695.79 dv, [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica Neue]126° retrograde[/FONT][/COLOR] in time, approximately, [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica Neue]Year 1, day 266 at 3:00:00[/FONT][/COLOR]
(I check time by window planner and by [URL]http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/[/URL] )


I have a retrograde orbit, and try to put maneuver node in Year 1, Day 266, 3:19:57 time. Not only encounter, but... My Pereapsis of my destination orbit locate above Moho Orbit! Nearly Eve :(


[IMG]http://s13.postimg.org/djygwqkcn/screenshot0.png[/IMG]




If I change ejection angle, I can give orbit with good pereapsis, and with Moho and probe markers, but without encounter:

[IMG]http://s15.postimg.org/4gwnxdqcb/screenshot2.png[/IMG]


Where I'm wrong? Please help me! More new ksp gamers write in this forum about docking - "docking is most difficult in KSP" - I think, It's wrong! It's really simple - I doesn't use docking interface, because RCS trusting enough to docking! Most difficult is Hohman trasfers! Intuitive traveling for planets also doesn't difficult, but it is Russian roulette (you never know, have you enough of fuel, or not) :(

And I have question: anybody can get a Obert's maneuver in KSP? Or another gravitation's maneuvers? I think, it can be very interesting, to use Eve for getting dV for visit Jool :) Edited November 21, 2015 by Polnoch

[SalehRam]

I never relied on these data to make my ejection angle... I only used them to know the good time for the transfer. Because when I try to get more data from these tools, I get confused hust like you...

I am like you, never made it to Moho yet. Few days ago I managed to send a probe there, but that was a stock, with no RemoteTech due to I have not updated it yet for 1.0.5... so I still have to do it 'officially' in my career save... then I need to win the new fight of sending a manned mission there with lifesupport modules...

The way I did that was launching the vessel without a specific time for that. Then play with nodes to get an ejection very near Moho DN, once I escape Kerbin, I reduce my PE to be on Moho orbit. Then with another node on my orbit touch point with Moho, I manage to get an encounter on the next orbit...

I found this the easiest for me, although it takes time and more TAC life support resources, but at least it works...

Also, as what the other guys said, Moho is toygh so don't get frustrated with it quickly and just keep trying everthing you can think of until you manage to reach it...

Good luck :)

[Warzouz]

[quote name='Polnoch']I'm sorry, I steel don't understand, how can I do it :(

If I try to use olex tool:[/QUOTE]

You can't really use olex tool to get a proper encounter with Moho. It'll only work with Duna, Eve or Jool (which have nearly no inclination, very little eccentricity or very big SOI).

This tool only gives you an average window. You should launch before and find a proper encounter around the date. For Moho or Dres, encounter can have a very different dV cost.

Again, I don't care about ejection angle any more, I figure it by tweaking the time of the burn node. When the orbit is the highest (for outer planets) or lowest (for inner planets) the ejection angle is fine for me.

Then I tweak orbit after orbit until I find a tangent encounter on the other side of the Sun.

Further more diffent tools can have some very different calculation results. For example "KAC" which implements a variation of Olex Tool have 2 caluclation mods (model or formula) which can have a 10 days variation.

I don't understand the math behind all that, but for navigation, I don't tru.

Even with Launch Window Planner ([url]http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/[/url]) I don't get correct encounter even fixing the node at the exact time provided. Sometimes, I'm not even close. I'm probably using it wrong.

I found my own method. I only need some way of fine tuning the node parameters. The stock game doesn't provide a user friendly way to do that. "Precise Node" or "Node Editor" from MJ do.

Rules I use for an efficient encounter
- Encounter near 180° of your SOI body
- Encounter as tangent as possible
- Shift Node time to get most efficient orbit change for your dV, then fix prograde value to tangent target orbit
- Use radial burn only for small adjustments, prefer shifting node time orbit after orbit.

For inclined objects.
- Try to meet at AN/DN
- If you can't try to have AN/DN as far as possible from the center of SOI.

For eccentric objects
- Try to meet near AP for inward objects or near PE for outward objects.

The testing vehicle.
- As KSP doesn't let you do some pre-calculation, have a satellite in departing orbit to test your flight and evaluate the dV you need.


EDIT : After rereading your post I noticed you may have misunderstood "retrograde" for phase angle. Your orbit around Kerbin is always prograde (you save fuel that way), but you will burn prograde to Kerbin SOI, with a phase angle which will make you do a retrograde burn relative to Kerbol SOI (but this burn will be done in kerbin SOI...

Olex tool then call ejection angle "retrograde". I also had hard time to understand what I had to do. Then looking at what MechJeb planned with the "adavance transfert" tool, I understood what had to be done. I figured my own method because MJ never gave me a clean encounter.

Navigation, even to Moho, can very easily be done without calculation mods. Try MJ "Node editor" feature. It helps you to be much more precise in changing the node parameter and, most of all, it allow to add ONE orbit to the node any time you want, of shifting a node precisely (I think you can do only 5 times in stock).

This stock node interface is hell on Kerbin. Edited November 23, 2015 by Warzouz