How are rocket stages transfered to launch sites?

[Halo_003]

IIRC, SpaceX limited Falcon 9 diameter to 3.66m because that was the maximum possible for road transport. So how are larger stages moved? For example, how would the CBC on a Delta IV be transported? What about SLS stages? Is a boat their only option? Or could they transport by rail or maybe a really big airplane?

 

I was trying to search for this last night to see if (hypothetically) you could fly a 4-5m tank on a 747, but I couldn't find any relevant info on it.

[Delta_8930]

ULA has a boat called the Delta Mariner that they use to transport 3 Delta cores at once. 

[RainDreamer]

Truck, rail, cargo planes, helicopters lift, or even bicycles and ox pulled carts.

Essentially, like any methods of large cargo transport, just more delicate.

[fredinno]

Atlas can also be transported by air, but usually 4m or larger dia cores are transported by boat.

[Delta_8930]

The S-IVB stage of the Saturn V was transported by the Super Guppy plane

[fredinno]

1 hour ago, Delta_8930 said:

The S-IVB stage of the Saturn V was transported by the Super Guppy plane

Huh, didn't know that. How big is that thing? (the plane, I mean)

[Delta_8930]

It's a Boeing 377 Stratocruiser modified with an extra large cargo bay, similar to the Airbus A300-600ST (Airbus Beluga). 

[Bill Phil]

1 hour ago, Delta_8930 said:

The S-IVB stage of the Saturn V was transported by the Super Guppy plane

But what about the S-IC and the S-II?

[Kryten]

Atlas+Delta are usually transported on a ro-ro boat called Delta Mariner, Atlas can also be air transported. All current Chinese and Russian designs are transported by rail, with the next-gen Chinese CZ-5 and 7 to be transported by specialised crane-equipped cargo ships. SLS is to be transported by the same barge they used for shuttle external tanks, NK transports theirs by rail, SK transported their Naro rocket by air, Iran transports their Safir by road, I couldn't find for the Israelis but presumably it's by road given the geography involved, and Arianespace does all their transport by ship. That should be just about everyone.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Kryten

[fredinno]

5 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

But what about the S-IC and the S-II?

Those were done by boat.

5 minutes ago, Kryten said:

Atlas+Delta are usually transported on a ro-ro boat called Delta Mariner, Atlas can also be air transported. All current Chinese and Russian designs are transported by rail, with the next-gen Chinese CZ-5 and 7 to be transported by specialised crane-equipped cargo ships. SLS is to be transported by the same barge they used for shuttle external tanks, NK transports theirs by rail, SK transported their Naro rocket by air, Iran transports their Safir by road, I couldn't find for the Israelis but presumably it's by road given the geography involved, and Arianespace does all their transport by ship. That should be just about everyone.

You forgot India and Ukraine (Zenit)...

[Exploro]

8 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

But what about the S-IC and the S-II?

S-1C and S-II were brought KSC via barge.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Exploro

[Red Fang]

Super Guppy Airbus Beluga
You can find decent encyclopedic info on most almost any aircraft on Wikipedia. 

[Kryten]

2 minutes ago, fredinno said:

Those were done by boat.

You forgot India and Ukraine (Zenit)...

Zenit was transported by rail as is Russian practice, and has flown it's last anyway. Indian launchers as far as I can tell are produced relatively close to the launch site and don't see significant transport.

[Bill Phil]

3 hours ago, Exploro said:

S-1C and S-II were brought KSC via barge.

Makes a lot of sense.

[Sanic]

The N-1/L3 was too big for a boat even, but I forget how the Soviets built it  

[Nibb31]

The N1 was assembled on-site. The rudimentary conditions in which it was constructed at Baikonur and the lack of testing capability on-site contributed to its poor quality control.

Saturn V rocket stages were transported by ship, which is why the Michoud facility is near the sea.

The Super Guppy was used by NASA to transport the Apollo CSM and S-IVB, not the other rocket stages

(After Apollo, Airbus bought NASA's Super Guppy and got a couple of others built. They were retired when Airbus switched to the A300 Beluga, and NASA bought one of them back and is still using it).

Space Shuttle tanks were transported by barge from Michoud, the SRBs were transported in segments by train from Ohio. SLS will use the same transportation modes.

And of course, the 747 SCA:

Russians typically use rail or air transport. The An-225 Mriya was built to carry Buran, but is also used to carry other stuff. Nowadays it's rented out to anybody who needs to transport oversize payloads (including Arianespace and sometimes NASA).

They also used two modified Myasishchev M-4 bombers for Energia tanks.

Arianespace uses ships to transport Soyuz or Ariane to Kourou.

Sometimes they borrow a Beluga from Airbus or they rent the An225 Mriya.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Nibb31

[fredinno]

4 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

The N1 was assembled on-site. The rudimentary conditions in which it was constructed at Baikonur and the lack of testing capability on-site contributed to its poor quality control.

Saturn V rocket stages were transported by ship, which is why the Michoud facility is near the sea.

The Super Guppy was used by NASA to transport the Apollo CSM and S-IVB, not the other rocket stages

(After Apollo, Airbus bought NASA's Super Guppy and got a couple of others built. They were retired when Airbus switched to the A300 Beluga, and NASA bought one of them back and is still using it).

Space Shuttle tanks were transported by barge from Michoud, the SRBs were transported in segments by train from Ohio. SLS will use the same transportation modes.

And of course, the 747 SCA:

Russians typically use rail or air transport. The An-225 Mriya was built to carry Buran, but is also used to carry other stuff. Nowadays it's rented out to anybody who needs to transport oversize payloads (including Arianespace and sometimes NASA).

They also used two modified Myasishchev M-4 bombers for Energia tanks.

Arianespace uses ships to transport Soyuz or Ariane to Kourou.

Sometimes they borrow a Beluga from Airbus or they rent the An225 Mriya.

 

 

God, how in the world does a plane carry the Energia Core Stage? Engineering Magic?

[1greywind]

49 minutes ago, fredinno said:

God, how in the world does a plane carry the Energia Core Stage? Engineering Magic?

No magic here. It was very large and very light H2 tank.

 

And on topic: Proton and Soyuz are transported by rail. Parts of Soyuz family boosters fit into normal sized railroad cars:

 

While Proton's first stage core (4.1 m diameter) requires oversized railroad car:

 

[Shania_L]

7 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

Arianespace uses ships to transport Soyuz or Ariane to Kourou.

 

"Soyuz Inside", that made me chuckle, I always love how someway or somehow even big organisations allow a little humour into such serious business.

[Kryten]

9 hours ago, Sanic said:

The N-1/L3 was too big for a boat even, but I forget how the Soviets built it  

They built it in a big facility at the Progress plant near Moscow, then ran some checks, completely disassembled it, and sent it on rail to Baikonur as basically a kit. Then the whole thing was put back together in the assembly hall.

[Halo_003]

Thanks guys! So if for example SpaceX had done a 4 or 5m diameter for the F9, how would they best move the first and second stage? Would it fit inside something like a 747? (Have looked but can't find relevant info on it.) Or would the best option be via barge or rail?

[Kryten]

The Atlas V CCB is 3.81m diameter and barely fits on the largest cargo aircraft in common use (An-124 Ruslan). Second stage would be fine with a outsize cargo vehicle like super guppy or beluga, but they don't have the weight or length capabilities of something like the Ruslan. 4m+ is also pushing it for rail; Proton's core is 4.1m, and to transport that they have to shut down the opposite line. Anything much above 4m needs barge transport.

[Halo_003]

5 minutes ago, Kryten said:

The Atlas V CCB is 3.81m diameter and barely fits on the largest cargo aircraft in common use (An-124 Ruslan). Second stage would be fine with a outsize cargo vehicle like super guppy or beluga, but they don't have the weight or length capabilities of something like the Ruslan. 4m+ is also pushing it for rail; Proton's core is 4.1m, and to transport that they have to shut down the opposite line. Anything much above 4m needs barge transport.

Interesting. If it wouldn't fit inside could they in theory strap it on top of a plane like the Energia tank? Or would they need to modify a plane too much for that to work?

 

 

[Nibb31]

2 hours ago, Halo_003 said:

Thanks guys! So if for example SpaceX had done a 4 or 5m diameter for the F9, how would they best move the first and second stage? Would it fit inside something like a 747? (Have looked but can't find relevant info on it.) Or would the best option be via barge or rail?

The Airbus Beluga can take up to 7.4m x 37m. Airbus is replacing the A300 CST "Beluga", with the A330 CST "Beluga XL", which will be 1m wider. I couldn't find the cargo size for the 747 LCF "Dream Lifter" that Boeing uses for carrying 787 fuselages, but I think it's not as wide as the Beluga, but it is longer. 

For rocket stages, length would be an issue. A F9 first stage wouldn't fit in a Beluga. The An225 is limited to 4.4m in height, so no go for a 5m diameter stage, and there is only one for rent, and it's expensive.

For routine transportation, they would need to build and operate their own aircraft. I don't think it makes sense economically, which is why most people speculate that their "BFR" is probably going to be built at the launch site.

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Nibb31

[Halo_003]

4 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

The Airbus Beluga can take up to 7.4m x 37m. Airbus is replacing the A300 CST "Beluga", with the A330 CST "Beluga XL", which will be 1m wider. I couldn't find the cargo size for the 747 LCF "Dream Lifter" that Boeing uses for carrying 787 fuselages, but I think it's not as wide as the Beluga, but it is longer. 

For rocket stages, length would be an issue. A F9 first stage wouldn't fit in a Beluga. The An225 is limited to 4.4m in height, so no go for a 5m diameter stage, and there is only one for rent, and it's expensive.

For routine transportation, they would need to build and operate their own aircraft. I don't think it makes sense economically, which is why most people speculate that their "BFR" is probably going to be built at the launch site.

 

Makes sense, thanks!

Say SpaceX wanted to strap a F9 first stage on top of a plane, could it work? And what kind of plane would it require?