DonLorenzo's Forum Campaign, Player Chat

[Bellaby]

Hi guys, now for anyone visiting this who hasn\'t come here via Don\'s campaign, and if you\'re interested, please check it out!

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/index.php?topic=11947.0

Its pretty awesome and has been playing very well, and has certainly made me really try-hard over my designs!

Any-who to the main purpose of this thread; a players discussion thread for Don\'s campaign, specifically to enable us to efficiently and quickly complete forum projects.

Now the way i suggested we, as a team of players, get this done more efficiently is that we set up a funding pool, where we all donate what we can afford (since we can all donate some, but none of us can really afford a whole extra rocket on our own).

Here is my original post from don\'s campaign thread;

I\'ve had an idea floating around in my \'brain\' concerning the building of the space station. Most people simply cannot afford to send up a secondary, non-profit (at least, no immediate profit) rocket up into orbit with a payload for the station. But some of use (myself included) do have a spare grand or two which we could spend on such missions, but this amount of money would never launch a rocket.

Now of course we all could just save those few grands over 4 or 5 turns and then have enough for a personal rocket, but that\'s 4 or 5 turns away! What I propose is a sort of \'funding pool\', kept track of in the OP, where people donate howevermuch of there budget to.

Then, with a pool which would grow much quicker with several lenders, a space-station mission can be attempted by an individual using the pool. First this person must request the money for a pool in a forum post (to prevent multiple people claiming the same money) with whoever posts first gets the money. This money MUST then be spent, in the same turn as it is claimed, on a space-station mission. Whether it succeeds or not isn\'t the matter, it\'s simply that i see this as an easier way to set up mutually beneficial missions.

If the pool is claimed, but the player doesn\'t do a mission (for whatever reason, i realise the RL has a tendency to get in the way of internet shenanigans! ) it is returned to the pool at the start of the next turn.

The pool may not be spent on personal missions.

All of the pool (or however much claimed from the pool) must be spent in the turn it was claimed purely on a space-station mission (don would be able to confirm this by knowing the player\'s turn details (i assume ) )

Players are morally obliged to spend some of their own money on a space-station mission when drawing from the pool (ie not to fund the mission purely from the pool, incase of failure so that pool isn\'t completely emptied for no success). Obliged!

So to flesh this out a bit, and how to use the pool, here are the \'Rules of the Pool\'!:

1 - Add to the pool if you plan on pulling from it, I\'ll keep a list of donaters at the bottom, people not on that list won\'t be able to request pool money.

2 - Pool money can only be spent on these community \'missions\', not on personal missions.

3 - To request money from the pool post below with how much you want and what you are lifting, myself or Don will then confirm it. Once we confirm it its yours!

4 - If you take from the pool to fund a community mission you are morally obliged to spend about a third again yourself personally, with a minimum of 3000 monies (which you will get back in reward anyway). We can\'t specifically check this so, erm, you are OBLIGED!

5 - If you take from the pool, the money MUST be spent that turn on a community mission. If you miss the turn or don\'t do a community mission the money is returned to the pool

6 - No splashing! (sorry couldn\'t help it :-[ )

7 - If you take and then learn you can\'t complete the turn for whatever reason, please post saying so, I\'d appreciate it and the pool can be better utilised in that turn. (not really a rule, more like courtesy)

8 - minimum donation of 1000 monies, to prevent people donating 1 monies just to get on the list and get access to the pool, spend it and make us all cry :\'(

9 - NEW RULE, only the leader of the design contest has pool rights, consider rule 1 now obsolete.

10 - NEW RULE, the pool can only be accessed once a turn, to help Don manage things.

11 - NEW RULE, Don has sent us some magical Kerbal Finance Wizards, which means we gain 10% interest on the pool per turn, calculated from what is in the pool at the end of a turn

If you succeed then EXCELLENT. If you don\'t then, oh well at least you tried. I can see this working beautifully, but I can see this flopping terribly. If you pull from the pool try and make sure your designs are efficient as well as effective, and above all cheap! I\'m sure Don will keep track of all such missions but for added benefit I will do so as well during every turn update.

If anyone has any ideas or comments then please, fire away. If you want to do other joint ventures for Don\'s campaign then discuss below! For this is the campaign\'s player chat thread! (As well as my rantings, i mean my ideas : )

The current player project is \'assemble a space station\'.

Joint space station construction: Put the parts for the joint space station into orbit (200x200km 0 inclination). The parts required are: 25x full LFT, 15x full large ZOX tank, 4x ZOX panel, 5x tri-coupler, 2x LFE (unused in flight), 20x RCS block, 10x RCS tank, 2x sLFE (unused in flight), 4x command pod (these last, as they will build + occupy the station). Orbital Rendez-vous and assembly is implied. The parts that you send up as cargo are free (you do need to have the apropriate tech), the ship that carries it isn\'t, you use your personal launch slot for these. You get a $3000 compensation for each such mission flown.

So as you see, we have a significant amount of work to do gentlemen, and gentleladies!

I\'ll keep track of what remains to be put in the 200x200km orbit in the spoilered section below:

• 
  [li]25 x Large liquid fuel tanks, we had a contract which asked us to do this with minimal fuel, can i request the victor\'s design?[/li]
  [li]15 x Large Zoxy Tank[/li]
  [li]4 x zox Panel[/li]
  [li]5 x Tri Coupler[/li]
  [li]2 x Liquid Fuel Engine, i assume the larger one[/li]
  [li]20 x RCS block[/li]
  [li]10 x RCS fuel tank[/li]
  [li]2 x small Liquid Fuel Engine[/li]
  [li]4 x Command Pod[/li]
  

[glow=red,2,300]THE POOL:[/glow] 52624 monies

Lifter Design Contest (in order of cost):

[list type=decimal]

[li]Awaras just keeps making awesome designs so I\'ll just leave his name here 8)![/li]

Donaters:

• 
  [li] Bellaby [/li]
  [li] Awaras [/li]
  [li] Db101 [/li]
  [li] Fireblade42 [/li]
  [li]Issarlk[/li]
  

We are currently on Turn 010!

The pool has not been accessed this turn.

[Bellaby]

When you guys complete your turn and email it to Don make sure to submit howevermuch you donated to the pool, so that Don correctly keeps track of your budget, for example this turn I will donate 5000 to the pool (don\'t feel like this is a standard or example amount, its actually quite a lot, feel free to donate less);

And my finance breakdown will look something like this:

- 2000 contract entry fee

- 5000 community pool donation

+ 10 gazzilion - won the awesome price

- 10 gazzilion - broke the rules, splashed the pool

Or something ;P

edit: Oh and this means I DONATE 5000 TO THE POOL

edit 2: oh and you will also want to detail how much you gained from the pool, which should be 3/4s the cost of the rocket you send up as your community mission !

[Awaras]

I like this. I donate 10000 to the pool.

Also, IF you are so inclined and have the time, you could organize a sub-campaign with bidding for contracts: You could propose a certain cargo (say 3 fuel tanks and a Zo2 tank) and then choose the lowest bidder from the submissions... Or something...

[Bellaby]

you mean bid for money from the pool?

I mean to keep this strictly within Don\'s campaign, so I can\'t pull anything out of thin air. I kind of understand what you mean but if you could explain a bit then i wouldn\'t mind.

[Awaras]

What I meant was that, first of all, it will not be very cost efficient to launch a single fuel tank at a time. A larger rocket carrying more components at once will probably be more cost efficient. I am proposing a design contest separate from the main campaign to see who can build a rocket that can lift the most cargo for the least amount of money.

[DonLorenzo]

Nice going guys!

It would be nice if you could elect one player (I think Bellaby, being the initiator, would be a good choice but as far as I\'m concerned it can be anyone) as \'pool administrator\' (or lifeguard). This guy\'s only task would be to tell me who gets to draw from the joint pool each turn and what amount. It would also help if it was just one player each turn that gets pool money. This is just a suggestion, you are free to organize it however you wish, as long as it\'s not too ridiculous I\'ll admin it. From now on the turn updates will have a \'joint initiatives\' section or something like that detailing what happened on that front.

As a sidebar to the KSP devs and forum mods, if you feel multiple threads for the one campaign are out of place please let me know. I\'ll throw up a little forum of my own for this in that case.

edit: Oh and if it needs saying, a design contest, or rather a \'joint engineering scheme\' is totally fine by me. Obviously you won\'t be able to conjure monies to use in the campaign out of thin air or something, but working together to come up with clever ways to efficiently launch cargo is definately approved

[db101]

Another consideration is how much technology players have -- any LFE ship I build someone (Awaras ) can build cheaper. This isn\'t a bad thing, because when I donate to the pool my money will go further if someone launches with their cheaper LFEs.

I\'m liking the idea of a sidebar design 'contest'. Once we figure out an efficient design for x payload I think we should consider the technological advances different players have in order to get the best return for the pool. It doesn\'t have to strictly be the highest tech person, of course. But I wouldn\'t really want my money to get splurged by someone who hasn\'t researched any technology at all.

[Bellaby]

good point db, i hadn\'t actually considered that. Let\'s get this a trial run then, here is a \'contract\' that i would like you guys to run:

This is a design challenge (that is always running) to build a rocket using Don\'s parts & price lists which can lift 4 mass (an RCS tank + 2 blocks is 1 mass, a large LF tank is 2.5 mass etc). The criteria is lowest cost possible, using your campaign tech levels to estimate price. The leader will pull from the pool (and their own funds) as much as necessary (provided there is enough in the pool) and use their secondary slot to launch the rocket from this design contest, and get 4 mass into that 200x200 orbit, once we establish a suitable design.

A couple of things here. For the \'leader\' bear in mind that you will not gain that 1500 fund raiser, and if it is vital for your turn to do this then yell and i will compensate you (but don\'t forget you get 3000 from don if you succeed!). Use tech with the same rules as don\'s campaign, so if you purchase tech it can be used immediately.

Provide the craft file, a breakdown of costs and flight instructions below, I will test your designs to see who succeeds then I will post below. There isn\'t a time limit, consider this as a running challenge. I will keep track of cheapest 4-mass lifters in the OP, and who provides them.

Because technology will be a major price factor here it means that the player with the best design will be the one doing the launches. Consider for now that only the player with best design has access to the pool (for now, I will update the OP).

Also if 4 mass is too heavy (or too light!) please suggest and discuss better. I describe the cargo as 4-mass and thus ambiguous because we need to left many different things, which is why the cargo isn\'t a specific thing. Re-usability ftw!

Example cargo\'s:

- 2 x LFE

- 4x (RCS tank & 2 x RCS block)

- 2x large Zoxy tank & 2 x small LFE

[Bellaby]

gah i didn\'t notice your post Don :-[

Yeah i\'ll happily be \'Lifeguard\' (haha nice)

For now what i\'ll do is only allow the current design leader to pull from the pool and I fully support and approve of \'Join Initiatives\'!

[Awaras]

I made a quick test and I have a design that can lift 4 mass (or maybe a little more) into a 200x200 orbit and land (every part except 2 decouplers is salvaged) which would cost me around 25000 monies...

Can someone make something cheaper?

[db101]

I have a few hefty expenses in this turn (before the income rolls in), so I\'m starting off only putting in 1000 for this round. :-[

Also, I\'ll see if I can design a nice lifter when I get back from work.

[Bellaby]

thanks db, every addition helps.

If you\'d be more specific (about rocket cost) Awaras then I\'ll pop you on the designs list. Thrashing out my mission ship at the moment but I\'ll give the lifter design ago. I\'ve thought about things a bit (dun dun dunnnn), keep the craft designs to your self so you can maintain your own secret techniques, just exact costs will do for the list, since that is our only required measure.

[Awaras]

It was 25050 monies, but it was something I put together in 15 minutes. I just posted it so we have a rough ballpark cost. I\'ll see what I can do to optimize it and then give you the exact numbers. OK?

[Bellaby]

yeah thats perfectly fine, and as you say it gives is a number to start from.

Also on an aside if we considered ourselves from a joint community perspective then we may want to coordinate our research. What i mean is at the moment all of us are probably researching similar things, with each of us becoming a \'jack of all trades\'. (for community projects) it would be wiser to have each of us specialise.

For example I will be gearing myself to get remote tech I & II as soon as possible, so I could start sending up powerSats to greatly increase the range of unmanned rockets, which are significantly cheaper.

Someone else may want to research LFE all the way and another person could fully develope Zoxy tech (although this would only be useful if we could jointly \'construct\' a vessel during community projects).

This doesn\'t really apply at the moment, but it is just my musings. Thoughts guys?

[Awaras]

Well, as you say, if we could have \'contractors\' for individual parts, so that the player that has the highest LFE tech provides the engines, the player that has fuel tech provides fuel tanks etc. than it might be worth it, but we will still all need most tech to stay competitive in the main campaign.

I think overspecialization might not be a best idea...

[Awaras]

I have cut it down to 24600 monies...

I can drop it to 21600 if I purchase fuel tech next turn...

I\'ll play with some other approaches tomorrow.

[issarlk]

I\'m sorry, no money this turn from me. my 30$ wouldn\'t have helped much anyway.

[Awaras]

Here is the part list for my $24600 lifter, so people can try to make one with less parts:

1 Command module

1 Zo2 module

6 small LFE

9 SRB\'s

7 large LF tanks

1 small LF tank

2 stack decouplers

3 struts

7 fuel lines

1 parachute

*edit*

If I have done my salvage calculations correctly, this craft would cost me $15835 after salvage.

[Bellaby]

That\'s no problem Issarlk, it\'s still early days yet where most players are scraping every penny.

Thats excellent Awaras, i\'ll add it to the OP. I only have LF tech I so my designs will most probably cost more, but knowing your parts list I\'ll try and make something smaller.

[Bellaby]

Great news guys, Don has decided to send us some \'Kerbal Science Wizards\' which cause our pool to grow by 10% per turn. (I assume this is 10% on top of what remains in the pool at the end of turn).

Awesomeness.

[Awaras]

My salvage calculations are way off so take what I said about the cost of my ship after salvage with a grain of salt.

*EDIT* Nope, the salvage numbers check out.

[DonLorenzo]

Great news guys, Don has decided to send us some \'Kerbal Science Wizards\' which cause our pool to grow by 10% per turn. (I assume this is 10% on top of what remains in the pool at the end of turn).

Awesomeness.

Yep, it\'s 10% of whatever is carried over to the next turn. In other words, the 10% interest happens \'between the turns\'.

[Bellaby]

Thanks to Fireblade42 for donating his fundraiser to the pool, but can I ask that players post here about pool donations? It helps me keep track of things, I can put you on the list of Donators straight away, and we can use that money straight away.

From this point I\'ll take Don\'s figures as official figures for tracking the pool to include anonymous donators, which is perfectly fine, but I\'d prefer it if you posted here.

Awaras, excellent news about the salvage, I don\'t believe I will come up with a cheaper design. Even using unmanned tech I cannot get cheaper than you. 6 sLFE\'s is 30000 alone for me! :\'(

I was experimenting with 1 large LFE designs but they struggle to make it to the high orbit required, and are now turning out to be more expensive, ~ 27000 or so. Of course with more research everyone can produce cheaper vessels.

[Awaras]

Awaras, excellent news about the salvage, I don\'t believe I will come up with a cheaper design. Even using unmanned tech I cannot get cheaper than you. 6 sLFE\'s is 30000 alone for me! :\'(

I was experimenting with 1 large LFE designs but they struggle to make it to the high orbit required, and are now turning out to be more expensive, ~ 27000 or so. Of course with more research everyone can produce cheaper vessels.

I have tried making it cheaper without much success, so now I am going the other way - trying to double the payload without doubling the price.

I\'ll have something today or tomorrow...

I am planning to ask for funds from the pool to make the first delivery this turn.

[Awaras]

OK, I have a ship that can lift 3 large fuel tanks and 1 RCS tank (8.4 units of weight) for $38250 ($24047.50 after salvage).

If i purchase fuel tech, the ship will cost $34050/$20897.50.

This means that it will cost us $4553.57 ($2862.79 after salvage) per unit of weight (or $4053/$2487.79 if I purchase fuel tech), while my old design cost $6150 (3958.75 after salvage) per unit of weight.

I thought I would ask to receive 2/3 of the cost after salvage - $16000 from the fund (or $14000 if I purchase fuel tech - haven\'t decided yet...)

What do you think? Is it worth it?