Lifting Mjolnir

[PB666]

Why would it fall to the ground once in hand, it might not move, but it shouldn't fall.

54 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Yeah, probably it was something like that Wasn't Arthur Clarke right, when he said that "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ?

Not magic, mythology, two different things, origin of the magic was in the sophistries of the magi teachers. Magic is trickery of man, mythology supercedes trickery. All the magic in the world you cannot bannish someone to hades (i.e. dead and then 5 years later bring them back). Mythology is not about actually doing something, its the art of dressing up story as history, and acting or painting out for the entertainment, education, indoctrination of the beholder.

Thor's hammer does not need a logic other than that created in the story, its logic is that it is a prop that is designed to interest and entertain.

 

[p1t1o]

5 minutes ago, PB666 said:

Thor's hammer does not need a logic other than that created in the story, its logic is that it is a prop that is designed to interest and entertain.

Oh come on thats not what this thread is for! 

[pincushionman]

19 minutes ago, PB666 said:

…Not magic, mythology, two different things…

Yes, exactly the same thing. In the context of Clarke's statement, magic is any of: Magic "magic," divine-being-powers "magic," psychic-powers "magic," robotics "magic" etc. The unexplainable is equally unexplainable regardless of the source of the…unexplainableness, for lack of a better word.

If you're going to insist on the semantics, you're missing the point.

[todofwar]

2 hours ago, p1t1o said:

<Odin whispering> "...Login with administrative privileges...delete user: Thor...update Adobe Flash player...."

At least Odin knows to update flash, very common way to get viruses! Of course, the idea that even a super advanced race of near immortals requires adobe updates is horrifying. 

[p1t1o]

Just now, todofwar said:

At least Odin knows to update flash, very common way to get viruses! Of course, the idea that even a super advanced race of near immortals requires adobe updates is horrifying. 

I never even considered the possibility that they wouldn't. I figure adobe updates are a fundamental property of the universe, like the Higgs field.

[cantab]

5 hours ago, K^2 said:

Given that we are trying to bypass its natural tendencies, that means tricking it.

So can Loki lift it? I mean, if anyone can trick an artefact into accepting them, it'd be Loki surely?

[PB666]

32 minutes ago, pincushionman said:

Yes, exactly the same thing. In the context of Clarke's statement, magic is any of: Magic "magic," divine-being-powers "magic," psychic-powers "magic," robotics "magic" etc. The unexplainable is equally unexplainable regardless of the source of the…unexplainableness, for lack of a better word.

If you're going to insist on the semantics, you're missing the point.

I don't think so; magic is sophistry of hand and body, our modern technologies are only extensions of this, but specifically differ in that the goal does not necessitate deceiving the untaught (although a body of the internet might be considered magic, a Saturn V rocket is not). Magic in fact is a contrivance of Greco-Romans, its a xenophobic reaction to zoroastrian practitioners it came to symbolize the following.

Quote

"Magian" or "magician," was influenced by (and eventually displaced) Greek goēs (γόης), the older word for a practitioner of magic, to include astrology, alchemy and other forms of esoteric knowledge.

Thereafter, mageia was used not for what actual magi did, but for something related to the word 'magic' in the modern sense, i.e. using supernatural means to achieve an effect in the natural world, or the appearance of achieving these effects through trickery or sleight of hand. The early Greek texts typically have the pejorative meaning, which in turn influenced the meaning of magos to denote a conjurer and a charlatan. - wikipedia [I should note that in a modern sense supernatural means is simply a prejudicial perspective, therefore all meanings can be reduced to the pejorative meaning].

There is alot that can be said on the topic from a modern scientific point of view, there was a time in which science and magic blended together, but those days are gone. Magic's overlay with technology in the classical sense is largely intent deterministic (although I have to say because of journals and referees reluctance to publish negative results even when those results are important can be perceived as a form of Magic, since the journals are concealing that which they don't want their audience to see).

An example of technology used to create magic is to use a TV camera perspective to make an elephant disappear. TV camera is not magic, your TV is not magic, the stunt pulls off only if the viewer believes that everything they see on TV is real, in fact nothing seen on TV is real except the slamming of electrons into phosphors on the end of the CRT, even that is not real, the colors and densities are fabricated on the your visual cortext by neurons, the order and patterns are fabricated by other neurons. (an if you have severe migraines with visual manifestations you are probably all too aware of that fact). 

We had this argument about sci-fictions unbelievable, the moment you know or remember that something is an act or an art, the magic and mythology, respectfully are gone. The alternative is to forget that these are contrivances and embellishments and at that point we confuse the two.  From my point of view, having extensively studied anthropology, Thor and Thor's hammer can never be anything more than Mythology, because I understand to be part of a story telling, not meant to deceive but otherwise entertain or enlighten.  Unless I somehow forget that said things are art and embellishments, and that is simply an ignorant misdefinition. If you are watching something even on PBS science show and a narrator throws out something you know for fact is incorrect (happened to me many times) what that announcer says afterword then becomes mythology (IOW you interpret their spin as part of their art), if you watch a sci-fantasy and they state something that is clearly not science (in other words - carelessly add sophistry to their art) then the rest of that show loses its magic.

 

 

[Tw1]

14 hours ago, PB666 said:

*stuff*

Yes, but you're still missing the point of this discussion. We're using the term magic in its common, every day use meaning powers, abilities, etc, derived from some some unknown, possibly spiritual source. 

The point of the quote is that someone does not understand the principles behind something's operation, it might as well be supernatural causes to them. Imagine showing showing a smart phone to the wrong person in the middle ages, you could be accused of witchcraft, as they'd have none of the concepts of electricity or computation needed to understand what's going on in the little box in your hand. 

Conversely, if what is described as magic plays by understandable, constant rules, it can be analysed, examined, investigated via scientific method. 

 

Everyone is well aware that Mjolnir is a plot device, and can behave as nessesary to tell the story, (though there's a solid argument that consistent world building is a part of good writing.) 

 

What we are trying to do here is discern some consistent rules explaining the behaviour of the hammer, from how it's seen to behave in its fictional universe, and discuss implications of those rules.  That's how this discussion must be framed. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Tw1

[PB666]

4 hours ago, Tw1 said:

Yes, but you're still missing the point of this discussion. We're using the term magic in its common, every day use meaning powers, abilities, etc, derived from some some unknown, possibly spiritual source. 

The point of the quote is that someone does not understand the principles behind something's operation, it might as well be supernatural causes to them. Imagine showing showing a smart phone to the wrong person in the middle ages, you could be accused of witchcraft, as they'd have none of the concepts of electricity or computation needed to understand what's going on in the little box in your hand. 

Conversely, if what is described as magic plays by understandable, constant rules, it can be analysed, examined, investigated via scientific method. 

 

Everyone is well aware that Mjolnir is a plot device, and can behave as nessesary to tell the story, (though there's a solid argument that consistent world building is a part of good writing.) 

 

What we are trying to do here is discern some consistent rules explaining the behaviour of the hammer, from how it's seen to behave in its fictional universe, and discuss implications of those rules.  That's how this discussion must be framed. 

Yes but intent is everything, do the will not to understand or is someone trying to deceive. I don't understand how the Cannae drive produces force, but I would be a fool to call it magic (although one has to laugh at the intent of a least one of its proponents). In the middle ages people were ignorant of many things, thats why they caught the waves of many things, their diety could not spare them from their ignorance, why should I. Ignorance is ignorance, deception is deception, mythology is mythology.

The difference between me and them is while they were studying comic books (which I was deprive of) I was studying science, so they see something that stimulates the brain I see something that is a plot device of an act, nothing more. The rules of the hammer are whatever you want them to be if you engage in the interpretation of the act. Move out of the POV of the observer and move into the POV of the wandering vagabound that might tell the story to the next audience; there is nothing complicated here you could fabricate your own U-tube video and impart your own mythos on it. Stargate did this all the time. There are no laws of physics that bind you.

As yourself this question in the eyes of that Norse what makes a man worthy. I a man was seen to be unworthy, the Norse would disembowel him and examine his entrails, if they looked normal, then whoops, time for a drink. It was a kind of xenophobic, but if you happened to identify a skraeling, oh my goodness you would be worthy.